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 Post subject: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #1 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:08 am 
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"Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen" ("天頂の囲碁7 Zen") will be sold from Nov 17. They say it has improved from 7-dan to 9-dan, in whatever ranking system that is.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B0765MNMLS/

I hope that this is a commercial version of DeepZenGo...


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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #2 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:52 am 
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It'll likely be v15.3, as this version is currently heavily tested on CGOS. ZenLv9 (also v15.3) ran on KGS with weaker hardware setting to simulate normal end-user computer, 20 minutes main time and 5 periods of 30 seconds byoyomi with handicap limited to 4 stones, achieved a solid 8 dan. Also there will be many level of strength judging from many test accounts on KGS: 8d (strongest), 7d, 6d, 5d, 4d, 3d, 2d, 1d, 1k, 2k, 3k, 5k, and 7k (weakest). It'll support GPU (likely up to one), and 10 cores of CPU (upgrade from 8 cores from previous version), though the GPU gives better performance boost than additional CPU. Actually they test a little bit of v15.4 but it's not better than 15.3.

My guilty thought on this is that I don't want it to release yet until we apply anti-cheating to all go online server (there's already a method but require all developers send all version of their programs to central body)

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #3 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:36 am 
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¥13,824 on Amazon.co.jp but only ¥9,794 on Yahoo!Shopping???

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #4 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:03 am 
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An interface seems to be the same, unchanged:
Move -> number of playouts -> winrate

Is this winrate actually MC, or Value Net, or weighted winrate like with Leela?
Game can't be uploaded and analyzed like with some other go software?
No GTP version?

Is new Zen center oriented or more teritory wise like AlphaGo? Is it possible to achive god like level, like AlphaGo, with this sort of style?

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #5 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:14 am 
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I've bought the latest available Zen and Crazystone, but I don't think I'm going to upgrade this year. What Leela and zakki offer in terms of playing, and even analysis with some of the free third-party addons and scripts, does not make the commercial engines a worthwhile proposition for me. Especially at the given prices.

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #6 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:29 am 
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I am still waiting for someone to implement a self-play-modus where the engine plays itself from any given position.

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #7 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:32 am 
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I hope there will be an english version soon. I love the current version for analyzing games.

I am not afraid of cheaters, my strength is much lower than 8 Dan :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #8 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 am 
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Satorian wrote:
I've bought the latest available Zen and Crazystone, but I don't think I'm going to upgrade this year. What Leela and zakki offer in terms of playing, and even analysis with some of the free third-party addons and scripts, does not make the commercial engines a worthwhile proposition for me. Especially at the given prices.

The thing is Zen 7 will be way much stronger than current commercial products. Much much stronger.

Pippen wrote:
I am still waiting for someone to implement a self-play-modus where the engine plays itself from any given position.

Self playing mode is possible with Zen 6 (computer vs computer) and also with Leela (GTP engine and editor needed).

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #9 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:26 am 
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The official website is launched and yes, it's confirmed that self-play function is still there

https://book.mynavi.jp/tencho7/


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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #10 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:02 pm 
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johnsmith wrote:
also with Leela (GTP engine and editor needed).


How does it work? I have Leela installed (no GPU). What else would I need?

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #11 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:47 pm 
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I'll have to correct myself, seems there will be some new features. Link provided by pookpooi, google translation is:

Seventh Battle - It is equipped with this work, "7th game" which was loaded from previous work and gained popularity. Every time you win, your opponent's skill is raised, images and comments are changed by victory or defeat, so you can enjoy details.
Self-battle score - "Self-battle score" that became a topic with Alpha Go. Let the computer fight against each other, and you can obtain game cards that will serve as a model.
Review mode - In addition to your own game record, you can load the game of Go AI or the game of professional game and read it. It shows the evaluation value of the start and candidate hand of "Zen".

I am really looking forward to seeing all these new features, especially Review mode. I think it's totally worth the money.
As for leela, which is a different topic - download engine only from leela's website, download Sabaki editor for example, and just load that engine to the editor.

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #12 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Zenith 6 is already very strong and very useful for every amateur go player.
(Much much stronger is relative, but any increase is nice and welcome here)

Review mode is not really new:
You can do this with "Analyze" in Zenith 6 already. It is a very nice feature indeed.
Move through the game (for example with mouse wheel) and watch win value and move ideas by zen.

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #13 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:07 pm 
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pookpooi wrote:
It'll likely be v15.3, as this version is currently heavily tested on CGOS. ZenLv9 (also v15.3) ran on KGS with weaker hardware setting to simulate normal end-user computer, 20 minutes main time and 5 periods of 30 seconds byoyomi with handicap limited to 4 stones, achieved a solid 8 dan. Also there will be many level of strength judging from many test accounts on KGS: 8d (strongest), 7d, 6d, 5d, 4d, 3d, 2d, 1d, 1k, 2k, 3k, 5k, and 7k (weakest). It'll support GPU (likely up to one), and 10 cores of CPU (upgrade from 8 cores from previous version), though the GPU gives better performance boost than additional CPU. Actually they test a little bit of v15.4 but it's not better than 15.3.

My guilty thought on this is that I don't want it to release yet until we apply anti-cheating to all go online server (there's already a method but require all developers send all version of their programs to central body)

Zenith Go 7 will not support GPU, according to the mail from ZenAuthor (Yoji Ojima).
Though I am still going to purchase it. Even without GPU, it is stronger and it has better Life & Death judgement than current freewares, so its evalutions are more convincing. I also like its playstyle very much.

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #14 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:33 am 
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Isla wrote:
Zenith Go 7 will not support GPU, according to the mail from ZenAuthor (Yoji Ojima).
Though I am still going to purchase it. Even without GPU, it is stronger and it has better Life & Death judgement than current freewares, so its evalutions are more convincing. I also like its playstyle very much.
Oh why, that's so strange. Can you share a link? If we look at the score of Zen-15.3-10c on CGOS against:
Zen-15.3-1c1g: 31 wins out of 110 games.
Zen-15.3-2c1g: 5 wins out of 38 games.

What are the implications of this? Is CPU only version weaker or what?

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #15 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:52 am 
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johnsmith wrote:
Isla wrote:
Zenith Go 7 will not support GPU, according to the mail from ZenAuthor (Yoji Ojima).
Though I am still going to purchase it. Even without GPU, it is stronger and it has better Life & Death judgement than current freewares, so its evalutions are more convincing. I also like its playstyle very much.
Oh why, that's so strange. Can you share a link? If we look at the score of Zen-15.3-10c on CGOS against:
Zen-15.3-1c1g: 31 wins out of 110 games.
Zen-15.3-2c1g: 5 wins out of 38 games.

What are the implications of this? Is CPU only version weaker or what?

I am also surprised when I heard this news.
ZenAuthor mentioned that:
(1) Zen's main customers are still elderly people in Japan, who do not even know what GPU is.
(2) Zenith Go 7 is about 2 stones stronger than Zenith Go 6, so they think it is enough to be a new product. Perhaps it could be weaker than some freewares with high-end GPUs, but they do not care about that for now.

For the test on CGOS, I guess that they just want to observe the strength with a strong CPU and without a GPU.

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #16 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:19 am 
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Isla wrote:
ZenAuthor mentioned that:
(1) Zen's main customers are still elderly people in Japan, who do not even know what GPU is.
(2) Zenith Go 7 is about 2 stones stronger than Zenith Go 6, so they think it is enough to be a new product. Perhaps it could be weaker than some freewares with high-end GPUs, but they do not care about that for now.

For the test on CGOS, I guess that they just want to observe the strength with a strong CPU and without a GPU.

Too bad they aren't paying attention to the customers all over the world. They surely know how big the hype is. Maybe they're going to add GPU functionality 'till November 17?
I am not sure that the difference is only 2 stones. Zen 6 is around 7d amateur, and Zen 7 is 9p.

I've been observing deepzengo games on WBaduk against Japanese pros, and so far deepzengo has lost only 2 games. Which means Zen is still beatable. Does anyone know how to access the archive of played games?

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #17 Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:43 am 
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johnsmith wrote:
I've been observing deepzengo games on WBaduk against Japanese pros, and so far deepzengo has lost only 2 games. Which means Zen is still beatable. Does anyone know how to access the archive of played games?


It's easy: http://www.go4go.net/go/games/byplayer/1776

Cheers,
Vesa

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #18 Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:42 am 
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These might be some official events, but other than that deepzengo has been playing every day. 1300 wins, 50 loses.

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 Post subject: Re: Tenchou no Igo 7 Zen
Post #19 Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:33 am 
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Isla wrote:
ZenAuthor mentioned that:
(1) Zen's main customers are still elderly people in Japan, who do not even know what GPU is.
I really like this one :tmbup:

I would love to see a GTP version for Zen, but somehow I understand that it would be a business killer for them: plenty of Zen bots would appear on KGS/OGS reducing the need to purchase the software.

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