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 Post subject: Lizzie help
Post #1 Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:52 am 
Oza

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I have an early Lizzie installed (easily) but someone suggested an upgrade to Lizzie 0.7.

I tried and apparently can't get it to work.

I double-clicked the jar file and the board loaded, and there is some functionality: I can click stones on, load a file, open the menu, etc.

But the AI analysis is missing, I get a box saying "Engine is loading" and the ReadMe file warns it can take a little while, while it is fine-tuning. But I have waited an hour and there is no sign of life.

There are (I believe) 2 network files (for lz and kata). They are both .gz zip files. There is also a file 15b_244_408k_q. All in the same directory.

Any tips, please.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #2 Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:58 am 
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(The first start it takes a very long time to initialize the engine settings, much longer than earlier versions. But an hour is too long probably.)

Did you try CPU and GPU versions? Or are you using the Mac/Linux version?

If it works correctly you do not have to make changes to the network files, it should work right out of the box.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #3 Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:41 pm 
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With Lizzie 0.7 (CPU) I found that KataGo did not work, this may be expected for my CPU
I opened it, left it for 5 minutes, then re-opened it.
It worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #4 Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm 
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If you used the GPU version, there may be a driver issue. By your description, Lizzie work, but the engines are not.

In Lizzie, go to parameters > Engine, and check the box "Show logs". Then press E to make appear the GTP windows, and restart Lizzie : that will show you what the engine tell Lizzie, and if there's an error, it should show here

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #5 Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:38 pm 
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I ran into similar issues at one point, and ended up giving up: https://github.com/featurecat/lizzie/issues/399

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #6 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:51 am 
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Are you using the Lizzie interface?

I have the same issue every time I start up Lizzie, where the Engine seems to be loading forever without Lizzie showing any signs of life. What works in my case is just to press the spacebar (which, if my memory serves me correctly, triggers the 'pondering' function) after having allowed Lizzie to load for a couple of seconds. If you're lucky, that might just be enough to make Lizzie spring to life (as she does in my case).

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #7 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:12 am 
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John - I just downloaded Lizzie 0.7 and it worked on my aging computer (Windows 7 64bit) using LeelaZero. It took about 2 minutes to get past "engine is loading" and I have a ten year old graphics card. (Radeon 5700). You might want to check the basics:

1 - You must have a 64bit version of Windows to run a 64bit application such as Lizzie 0.7. Do you have a 64bit version of Java installed? Is it version 1.8? You can enter "java -version" on the command line. I have "1.8.0_221 64bit server VM"

2 - If you have an older version of Java I suggest you manually uninstall it and then install the latest 64 bit version. I had problems with GoWrite a couple of years ago when my version of Java got updated and it led to all sorts of problems with several applications.

3 - Download the CPU version of Lizzie and install it - that avoids any problems with the graphics card (assuming you have one).

Installation - Just unzip the Lizzie distribution which is 146meg. Leave the GZ files in the folder as are - LeelaZ can read these compressed files directly.

If this works then download the GPU version and install it. The default that I had was to run LeelaZ as the engine. If this doesn't work - then you need to look at your graphics card and drivers.

4 - There are various utilites on the web which will give you a summary of your graphics card - does it support OpenCL etc etc.

HTH - John

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #8 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:45 am 
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Thank you all for tips so far. I have tried what I can but I don't seem any further forward.

First, I did download the gpu version first. I assumed this mean "works with a GUI interface" as opposed to cpu = works from the "command line." I'm obviously out of kilter with the gaming age, so I downloaded the cpu version. I got exactly the same effect.

But then I tried the checks mentioned here. Java seems fine. The engine log was not where it was said to be here but there were enough clues to find it eventually, and that's where I got the extra information, which means nothing to me but may to you experts.

There was nothing in the "gtp console" like that looked remotely like an error message. What I got was a lznetwork.gz> prompt which offered initially information on name, version, boardsize and komi.

After waiting a very long time (over 10 minutes) I got bored and started pressing buttons. What I found was that the gtp console would update and for evert press of the space-bar it would added lznetwork.gz> X name, where X was a sequential number. I got up to 165 on one run (yes, that's how bored I was!) but it had no effect on making the engine work. Shutting down and reloading had no discernible effect.

Another possible clue is that if I switch "engine" to katago, the gtp console responds by saying "katago v. 1.2" and when I try to switch back to lizzie, it takes a couple of second before declaring "quit". That seems to suggest something was going on behind the scenes, but I gather loading katago takes much, much longer.

The gtp console will also respond if I click the board (it gives "play" and the move coordinate) but I can't get the console to respond by any other way than that or the space-bar (="name"). Although the gtp console doesn't show it, though, other commands such as menu and "show cooridinates" do still work as expected.

My Sony machine (Windows 10) is certainly old, but fully updated, seems fast, and I have no compatibility issues elsewhere.


One last splurge before I give up?

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #9 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:03 am 
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John - Both the cpu and gpu versions have the same interface - ie a nice graphical one. The cpu version doesn't attempt to use the power of a graphics card, just the processor. The gpu version uses the graphics card - so you need the right driver and different graphics cards have different interfaces. The cpu version is in all probability easier to get to work on any given computer.

I tried to use KataGo on my system this morning - it just sits there with "engine is loading" for many minutes. So out of the box I can get Lizzie to work with LeelaZero but not Katago.

I can't offer any more ideas.

Sorry - John

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #10 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:40 am 
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John Tilley wrote:
I tried to use KataGo on my system this morning - it just sits there with "engine is loading" for many minutes. So out of the box I can get Lizzie to work with LeelaZero but not Katago.


It's possible that KataGo has failed to load, but it's also possible that it's simply running a tuning process to compile itself and test parameters to work on your hardware, which it does on the first-time startup. On a top-level GPU, this process takes only 15s-30s or so, but I could imagine it taking longer on more casual hardware.

KataGo tries to make it plain that it's doing this tuning, by outputting a bunch of stuff to the command line as it's doing so showing progress in the various phases of the tuning, but unfortunately it's an open issue that Lizzie doesn't by default display this output, as noted by hyperpape above (https://github.com/featurecat/lizzie/issues/399), so there's no easy way for the user to tell what's going on.

So, try running the KataGo gtp command that Lizzie is running directly within a command line console, outside of Lizzie as described here https://github.com/featurecat/lizzie/is ... -539194820 . This should make it clear whether it is failing or whether it is tuning successfully and just taking a long time. The tuning only needs to happen once, on every subsequent startup it should be fine after that.

Edit: Also as you might see from that Github thread, if you're using something like Intel integrated graphics, it might be a bit hit-or-miss whether it actually works.


Last edited by lightvector on Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #11 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:42 am 
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I have a 1050ti and had to update my drivers before 0.7 would run. Not using Windows Update, but actually going on the AMD website and downloading and installing the latest drivers. Then it worked fine, got past the Engine Is Loading screen in 10 seconds using GPU mode.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #12 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:58 am 
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lightvector wrote:
KataGo tries to make it plain that it's doing this tuning, by outputting a bunch of stuff to the command line as it's doing so showing progress in the various phases of the tuning, but unfortunately it's an open issue that Lizzie doesn't by default display this output, as noted by hyperpape above (https://github.com/featurecat/lizzie/issues/399), so there's no easy way for the user to tell what's going on.


Not by default, but you can make Lizzie show you the log, as I explained in my previous message. If you check the "Print Engine log" options in the options, it will display the same thing in the GTP console of Lizzie as what it would display on the terminal.

Edit : Visual tutorial
Attachment:
Lizzie Display log.png
Lizzie Display log.png [ 1.32 MiB | Viewed 336 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #13 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:05 am 
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Adding in - to John's frustration I'm afraid - that on my machine Lizzie 0.7 works like a charm. Downloaded the CPU version. Unpacked it. Launched the jar file. Switching engines to Kata took a good minute or so. This lazy user has his machine offered and maintained by a professional organization - I guess that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #14 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:07 am 
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Quote:
KataGo tries to make it plain that it's doing this tuning, by outputting a bunch of stuff to the command line as it's doing so showing progress in the various phases of the tuning,


I tried this and, while it didn't work, the information outputted may help someone:

Uncaught exception: OpenCL error at C:\Data\Data\Coding\Python\Katago\cpp\neuralnet\openclhelpers.cpp, func err, line 188, error CL_PLATFORM_NOT_FOUND_KHR

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #15 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:27 am 
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This error tell us that OpenCL (drivers to use your graphical card for computation) is not available on your computer.

Could you give your complete configuration of your computer ?

Open the search bar (right click on the lower right on the windows icon > Search), then type Dxdiag, the icon is a Yellow X in a blue circle. Run this, it will list your current configuration. The "System" and "Display" tabs are what's usefull.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #16 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:32 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
KataGo tries to make it plain that it's doing this tuning, by outputting a bunch of stuff to the command line as it's doing so showing progress in the various phases of the tuning,


I tried this and, while it didn't work, the information outputted may help someone:

Uncaught exception: OpenCL error at C:\Data\Data\Coding\Python\Katago\cpp\neuralnet\openclhelpers.cpp, func err, line 188, error CL_PLATFORM_NOT_FOUND_KHR


@John - In case it wasn't clear from earlier messages, "GPU" has nothing to do with the user interface, it originally means "Graphics processing unit" and refers to specific dedicated hardware accelerators for graphics typically for video games, but such processors are now commonly used for high-performance numerical computations that have nothing to do with graphics and video games. Neural nets in Go are an example of a thing that has nothing to do with graphics that requires high-performance numerical computations to run efficiently.

"CPU" just refers to the ordinary kind of processor that every modern computer has.

With a dedicated graphics card such as from Nvidia or AMD, the GPU version of a program will typically run much faster (get way more playouts per second, search much deeper) and play much stronger than the CPU version, which is why the GPU is preferable if you have such a card. They are identical in terms of interface, the only difference is things like the playouts/s that you will see.

OpenCL is generally used as a cross-platform means for programs to access a GPU. KataGo has no pure-CPU version right now, so it wants you to have OpenCL and *some* form of graphics card or acceleration. The error you got means that KataGo did NOT find such an OpenCL platform on your computer, so you probably don't have a dedicated graphics card such as from Nvidia or AMD on your computer - is that right? (Or if you do, the possibly their drivers are not up to date).

If you indeed don't have those, then you probably are not going to be able to use KataGo for now. A pure CPU version is on the list of things to do, but will not be available for quite some time. There *are* pure-CPU implementations of OpenCL as well that you could try installing - for example if you have a recent Intel CPU the following in theory could work: https://software.intel.com/en-us/opencl-sdk . But that's probably getting pretty far down the rabbit hole, and at that point it would probably be easier to just stick with the CPU version of LZ.

If on the other hand you do think you have a graphics/GPU accelerator or such on your computer, then the error is not that you don't have one, but that it is not being detected for some reason. In that case, yes, it would be worth digging further as Tryss has suggested.

Does that mostly make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #17 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:12 am 
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Thank you responders. I did twig the meaning of gpu, and reading up it seems that the type of graphics I have (Intel HD) is buggy and does not work with lizzie. At least that's what I made of the information I saw on (I think) GitHub where someone had a similar problem.

In all honesty, I was never likely to use Lizzie 7. I barely look at the old version. I would have happily installed it if I could, but I'm not feeling deprived. I spend too much time on go as it is.

I could try another, more up-to-date, Lenovo computer which I never use, but I gather (from the same GitHub conversation as above) that Lenovo uses Intel chips and may have the same problem anyway. (It's not a 5-minute job to find out, because if I switch that other computer on, I'll have to spend ages doing all the updates.)

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #18 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Thank you responders. I did twig the meaning of gpu, and reading up it seems that the type of graphics I have (Intel HD) is buggy and does not work with lizzie. At least that's what I made of the information I saw on (I think) GitHub where someone had a similar problem.

In all honesty, I was never likely to use Lizzie 7. I barely look at the old version. I would have happily installed it if I could, but I'm not feeling deprived. I spend too much time on go as it is.

I could try another, more up-to-date, Lenovo computer which I never use, but I gather (from the same GitHub conversation as above) that Lenovo uses Intel chips and may have the same problem anyway. (It's not a 5-minute job to find out, because if I switch that other computer on, I'll have to spend ages doing all the updates.)


Leela Zero would work on Intel HD better, it's a different program and it should work with the integrated graphics. The only problem is it will be slower.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #19 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:40 pm 
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If you want get a decent number of playouts running LZ on a laptop, I think you need a relatively new (gaming) laptop with a decent NVidia GPU. A new laptop like that will cost you roughly 1000 euros or more.

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 Post subject: Re: Lizzie help
Post #20 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:37 am 
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Hm it's soon 3 years since I bought my laptop, which has an nvidia GPU, (9xxM, don't remember which) - It is perfectly fine for reviewing, and of course a huge upgrade compared to the mentioned Intel/CPU versions.

It is a gaming centered laptop, but it cost 700-800 euro here in Denmark. So I'm sure you can find something decent today without spending 1.000+ euro, as long as you know what you're looking for

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