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 Post subject: Re: KataGo self-play games + video reviews
Post #161 Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2024 9:22 pm 
Lives with ko

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Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
xela, thank you so much for your comments!! :) And knotwilg too for your elaboration!

xela wrote:
Sorry I'm not able to keep up with the pace and review every game here.


Oh, come on. You tell me this even though I took exactly a year's break between games 103 and 104...? :mrgreen:

Out of curiosity, what do you make of the bizarre "joseki" sequence from move 8 to 17?

xela wrote:
Thanks again for posting these fascinating games! Even I don't get time to post my comments every time, I'm enjoying the ones that I manage to look at. Please keep going with this :-)


Thank you so much, I will! :) I'm up to game 141 by now. The one-year break of posting here was just because of this forum's bug with uploading .sgfs. I've been waiting for ZBaduk to implement a new KataGo net before I continue. All the games since game 82 in July 2022 have been using the same 60b network, whose fuseki potential I think I've exhausted by now.


Last edited by Maharani on Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #162 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:44 pm 
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Game 111 (7 komi, NZ rules) is a fighting game that results in a draw after only 224 moves. https://online-go.com/review/1017234

Tang Jie, CHN 5d has reviewed this game! I’ve included all of his (commented) variations, plus more KataGo variations, in the OGS review.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Game 127 will continue at a instead of F16.
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_111.sgf [40.77 KiB]
Downloaded 341 times
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 Post subject: Re: KataGo self-play games + video reviews
Post #163 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:05 pm 
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Maharani wrote:
xela wrote:
Sorry I'm not able to keep up with the pace and review every game here.


Oh, come on. You tell me this even though I took exactly a year's break between games 102 and 103...? :mrgreen:

Yes, well, real life gets in the way of my go addiction sometimes...

Maharani wrote:
Out of curiosity, what do you make of the bizarre "joseki" sequence from move 8 to 17?

Right, I didn't comment on that because:
  • I thought it was part of the AlphaGo Teach starting position that you chose, not KataGo's choice of moves; and
  • It's way beyond my understanding :-)
But I can offer some thoughts:

Move 8 is new to me, but the shape gets about 30 hits in my GoGoD+go4go database. It's the sort of probe you'd expect once black has built a moyo, checking black's reaction before deciding whether to reduce or invade. And indeed in the database it generally happens between move 40 and 60, sometimes later and with other black stones in that quarter of the board. There were a couple of examples around move 22 or 23. But nothing as early as move 8!

I guess here, white is probing before choosing the joseki sequence in the lower left. And the diagonal move at white 18 is a little unusual. But the part that's beyond my understanding is the relationship between the joseki and the top right.

Trying some different sequences in KataGo:
  • If I force white 8 to be in the lower left, then it prefers C3 over C4.
  • After playing out moves 8-17, then KataGo does prefer C4 in the lower left, so what happened at the top right makes a difference
  • If I leave the top right untouched, play out the lower left as in the game, then put white O18 on the board and ask KataGo for the best replies, the next two moves are the same as in the game, but after that it wants black to atari on top at P16 instead of capturing at N18.
All very mysterious to me.


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 Post subject: Re: KataGo self-play games + video reviews
Post #164 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:19 pm 
Lives with ko

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Thank you, super fascinating!! :)

As a side note, I haven't explored any AGT positions for two years (25 games with CHN rules and 7.5 komi). All of the 141 games played with NZ rules and 7 komi are native KataGo games. :)


Last edited by Maharani on Tue Jan 16, 2024 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #165 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 1:16 pm 
Lives with ko

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Game 112 (7 komi, NZ rules) sees white exploring some mysterious aji in black's bottom right corner. Move 93 is a signature KataGo move, with black beginning to make sabaki in white's sketched-out moyo. By move 154, white is firmly 2 points ahead, causing black to lose his will to live and lose by at least 12 points thirty moves later. https://online-go.com/review/1019740

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Game 123 will continue at a instead of P2.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_112.sgf [1.47 KiB]
Downloaded 314 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #166 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:02 am 
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In game 113 (7 komi, NZ rules), black amusingly keeps ignoring white's bit-by-bit reduction of his large left-side area in order to profit in the bottom left corner and center instead. The game ends as a draw. https://online-go.com/review/1024533

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_113.sgf [2.24 KiB]
Downloaded 310 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #167 Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:24 pm 
Lives with ko

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In game 114 (7 komi, NZ rules), by move 88, black has built a giant top left moyo and white has built an equally giant center bottom moyo; then they invade and reduce each other in equal amounts. Move 78 is rather spectacular. The game is a draw. https://online-go.com/review/1027348

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Sixteen previous games continued at a instead of C3.
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf file:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_114.sgf [2.14 KiB]
Downloaded 291 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #168 Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 10:21 pm 
Lives with ko

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Game 115 (NZ rules, 7 komi) escalates into an all-consuming center fight after black deviates from the top left joseki to cut at D14. After move 216, black decides that, since he's at least 1 point behind, he might as well lose by 12 points. https://online-go.com/review/1032799

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Games 89, 97 and 124 continue at a instead of C15.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_115.sgf [2.17 KiB]
Downloaded 287 times
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 Post subject: Re: KataGo self-play games + video reviews
Post #169 Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:44 pm 
Judan

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I have studied these AI opening a lot but they need not result in a center fight. They can also start an early endgame.


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by: Maharani
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #170 Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2024 12:55 am 
Lives with ko

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In game 116 (7 komi, NZ rules), black gets four corners, lives in the middle, and loses by about 4 points: https://online-go.com/demo/view/1036390

Tang Jie, CHN 5d has reviewed this game! I’ve included all of his (commented) variations, plus more KataGo variations, in the OGS review.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_116.sgf [42.99 KiB]
Downloaded 286 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #171 Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2024 11:12 pm 
Lives with ko

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Location: Pasadena, USA
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OGS: Maharani
In game 117 (7 komi, NZ rules), move 45 got a 0.05 % rating from the policy network. After a lot of fighting, by move 185, KataGo realizes that black is at least 2 points ahead. White loses her will to live, and the game by at least 72 points. https://online-go.com/review/1038752

GoDave89, EGF 4d has done a 60-minute video review of this game! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTHN84KO63c

I’ve included all of his (commented) variations, plus more KataGo variations, in the OGS review as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Games 117 and 118 continue at Q5. Game 126 will continue at a instead.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_117.sgf [49 KiB]
Downloaded 273 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #172 Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2024 11:53 pm 
Lives with ko

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Game 118 (7 komi, NZ rules), starting around move 43, turns into a whole-board fight. A ko starting at move 207 lasts for 50 moves. Black and white end up with four living groups each, and the game is a draw. https://online-go.com/review/1039984

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Game 117 continued at a instead of R12.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_118.sgf [2.4 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #173 Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:01 pm 
Lives with ko

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Location: Pasadena, USA
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Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
In game 119 (7 komi, NZ rules), after a complicated fight on the bottom settles by move 98, another huge fight starts on the left at move 99. Once all the dust settles, the game ends as a draw. https://online-go.com/review/1045306

Tang Jie, CHN 5d has done a 45-minute video review of this game! https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GDlkmT ... vAstB/view

I’ve included all of his (commented) variations, plus more KataGo variations, in the OGS review.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Games 110 and 119 continue at Q15. Games 111 and 120 continue at a instead, and game 128 at b.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_119.sgf [44.99 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #174 Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:14 am 
Lives with ko

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Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
In game 120 (7 komi, NZ rules), by move 92, black and white have cooperated to build a fence in the middle of the board, and they stay true to this arrangement. Black ends up sacrificing 28 stones on the left side of the board while white sacrifices 12 stones on the right side. In the end, four territories remain on the board; one is worth 15 points, one is worth 49 points, one is worth 64 points, and one is worth 91 points. A very satisfying draw. https://online-go.com/review/1049006

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Game 111 continued at a instead of M17.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . a . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_120.sgf [1.95 KiB]
Downloaded 246 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #175 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 12:53 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 237
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 79
Was liked: 12
Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
In game 121 (7 komi, NZ rules), white tenukiing the bottom right joseki to grab a quick corner at move 8 leads to an early complicated fight. The game ends as a draw. https://online-go.com/review/1054267

Tang Jie, CHN 5d has reviewed this game! I’ve included all of his (commented) variations, plus more KataGo variations, in the OGS review.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The opening.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X O O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_121.sgf [51.66 KiB]
Downloaded 217 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #176 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:52 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 237
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 79
Was liked: 12
Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Game 122 (7 komi, NZ rules) is a mindbendingly insane game of which Eunkyo Do (KOR 1p) said: "It looks like they are playing another game than go!" It ends as a draw. https://online-go.com/review/1059280

Tang Jie, CHN 5d has done a 55-minute video review of this game! https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G8DrNB ... sp=sharing

I’ve included all of his (commented) variations, plus more KataGo variations, in the OGS review.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc A double-approach joseki has escalated.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . O X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O O X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X . X O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_122.sgf [48.13 KiB]
Downloaded 219 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #177 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:59 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 237
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 79
Was liked: 12
Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Game 123 (7 komi, NZ rules) is a game of strange shapes. Tough for my 10k brain to summarize what's going on. After move 232, black realizes he's firmly behind by 2 points, and resigns six moves later. https://online-go.com/review/1061025

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Beats me.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O . . . X X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . X . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . . . O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . X . O O X B . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_123.sgf [1.84 KiB]
Downloaded 217 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #178 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 12:28 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 237
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 79
Was liked: 12
Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
Game 124 (NZ rules, 7 komi) is a game with four 3-3 invasions. Black connects up two of his 3-3 invasions to make a 38-point territory on the left side, whereas white uses her top right 3-3 invasion to capture black's invaded corner. The game ends as a draw. https://online-go.com/review/1063933

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Game 89 continued at a instead of Q5.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_124.sgf [2.07 KiB]
Downloaded 207 times
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 Post subject: Re: My hand-crafted KataGo (+ AlphaGo Teach) self-play games
Post #179 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2024 1:14 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 237
Location: Pasadena, USA
Liked others: 79
Was liked: 12
Rank: OGS 9 kyu
OGS: Maharani
What I enjoy most about game 125 (7 komi, NZ rules) is black and white breezily floating around the bottom side. After move 184, black realizes he's firmly behind by at least 2 points, so he starts wasting ko threats. https://online-go.com/review/1069204

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc "We all float down here." — Pennywise the clown
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . X . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . . O . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . O X . X X X . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


.sgf:



Attachments:
kg_7_komi_game_125.sgf [1.6 KiB]
Downloaded 206 times
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