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 Post subject: Leela has a new version
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:30 am 
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Not much to add to the subject title, you can check it out here: https://sjeng.org/leela.html

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:11 pm 
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Wow. This thing now uses a neural network as well; seeing that it uses the BLAS library, it's possibly Caffe, which Pachi uses in its latest version. Pachi, however, cannot (yet) ponder while the DCNN is active. The author doesn't mention anything about this in Leela's readme, so I assume pondering works.

I wonder why Pachi only gains one stone in strength when using the DCNN, while Leela, according to the website, gains 6 stones. Leela also runs the network on the GPU, which gains a lot of speed.

I'll have to run Pachi, the latest Fuego, and this version of Leela against one another to see what happens.

Pachi still has the most patterns, by far.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:12 pm 
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From the Web site:

Quote:
Leela 0.6.2 (2016-06-04)
• Deep Learning DCNN for move pruning during search (+6 stones strength).
• Added OpenCL version, running the DCNN on the GPU.
• Reworked search algorithm for Deep Learning mode.


And this:
ATTENTION pls:
Please check the installer and installed files for malware, somebody on FB says his AV program claims to have found a Trojan Horse in the setup executable.

(obsolete, pls see Garf’s next comment)

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Last edited by Bonobo on Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:23 am 
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Bonobo wrote:
And this:
ATTENTION pls:
Please check the installer and installed files for malware, somebody on FB says his AV program claims to have found a Trojan Horse in the setup executable.


It's a false positive: https://virustotal.com/en/file/1ca5407d ... 465201118/


This post by Garf was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, ez4u
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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:36 am 
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Babelardus wrote:
Wow. This thing now uses a neural network as well; seeing that it uses the BLAS library, it's possibly Caffe, which Pachi uses in its latest version. Pachi, however, cannot (yet) ponder while the DCNN is active. The author doesn't mention anything about this in Leela's readme, so I assume pondering works.


Leela doesn't include the Caffe libraries, so no. Leela's pondering works with the DCNN, I have no idea why Pachi has such a strange restriction.

Quote:
I wonder why Pachi only gains one stone in strength when using the DCNN, while Leela, according to the website, gains 6 stones.


Pachi uses the DCNN to initialize the Monte Carlo engine at the root position. Leela uses it inside the search tree for pruning, together with a new search. Leela's approach appears to be much stronger.

Quote:
Pachi still has the most patterns, by far.


They don't appear to be the good ones, then :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:34 am 
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Garf wrote:
Pachi uses the DCNN to initialize the Monte Carlo engine at the root position. Leela uses it inside the search tree for pruning, together with a new search. Leela's approach appears to be much stronger.


Cool :) Pachi has a rating of about 4d on KGS, without the DCNN. The author of Leela claims a 3-4d rating, but it includes the DCNN. I wonder what would happen to Pachi if the author implemented DCNN in the same way Leela does (if possible, without rewriting half the program).

Quote:
Quote:
Pachi still has the most patterns, by far.


They don't appear to be the good ones, then :-)


Why not? Does Pachi include a lot of useless patterns?

With regard to Leela's DCNN learning: Pachi requires some files to be added to its installation to make the DCNN work. Leela doesn't seem to have any, and I didn't see anything mentioned. Where is Leela's learning data stored; in the executable, or in the large BLAS DLL maybe?

Also, there is a 25MB Linux file in there. What is this; just a statically linked Linux executable? I haven't checked that yet, as I don't have a Linux installation running.


Last edited by Babelardus on Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:26 am 
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Garf wrote:
Thank you, Garf, meanwhile I also read similar replies elsewhere, just wasn’t fast enough in following up here.

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Last edited by Bonobo on Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:51 am 
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Babelardus wrote:
Pachi has a rating of about 4d on KGS, without the DCNN.


On a 64 machine cluster, with each node having 20 cores, i.e. a 1280 CPU machine. (Source: pachi's homepage).

Leela's 3D/4D rating is from a "standard quad core PC", which seems to be a single Core i7-3770K + GPU. (Source: http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/122/index.html)

Quote:
Why not? Does Pachi include a lot of useless patterns?


It was mostly a joke. You should play some games between Leela and Pachi on identical hardware, I think you will get the joke then :-)



Quote:
What is this; just a statically linked Linux executable?


Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #9 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:28 am 
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Minor correction? Not EXACTLY a false positive warning. An antivirus program set to the task of analyzing something that installs software SHOULD flag that as potentially dangerous. Think about it for just a moment. There is no way the antivirus program can tell whether what would be installed is something you want to be installed or something you know nothing about trying to sneak into your computer. That's OTHER knowledge, available to you but not the antivirus program.

That's why it is telling you to take a look (identify what will be installed).

A word to the wise. Only get software to install from a trusted source. Things don't have to be what they claim to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #10 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:38 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Minor correction? Not EXACTLY a false positive warning. An antivirus program set to the task of analyzing something that installs software SHOULD flag that as potentially dangerous. Think about it for just a moment.


Huh? You mean an anti-virus program should cry "wolf" every time you install anything? Classic way for real warnings to get ignored.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:44 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Minor correction? ... That's why it is telling you to take a look (identify what will be installed).


So what's the point of installing an antivirus program if you have to make the judgement yourself?

Quote:
A word to the wise. Only get software to install from a trusted source. Things don't have to be what they claim to be.


Is https://sjeng.org a trusted source?

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:32 pm 
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Garf wrote:
Mike Novack wrote:
Minor correction? ... That's why it is telling you to take a look (identify what will be installed).


So what's the point of installing an antivirus program if you have to make the judgement yourself?


As someone who removes cryptolockers from our company network on a monthly basis I will tell you: A typical antivirus will only catch about 50% of all known malware. You always have to make a judgement call before you install something. Like a flue shot, the chance of getting sick is smaller but certainly not non-existent.

On the mallware part, I did install it and did not find any problems or suspicious behaviour. That doesn't mean anything either but it does make it less likely that is your run of the mill spambot malware.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #13 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:04 pm 
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Misunderstanding about what an "antivirus" program can and cannot do.


Assume the existence of a perfect virus detector, never misses a virus and never gives a false positive. In other words, it is a function A(P) which returns true if P is a virus and false if P is OK.

Now consider program Q which will be defined as follows:
If A(Q) then simply terminate else act like a virus.

What will happen when you run A(Q)? << if A says that Q is a virus, then it isn't; if A says that Q is safe, then it is a virus; in other words, A will fail when checking Q >>

Here, what was being reported was a TROJAN. What is the definition of a TROJAN? It's a program installed on your computer that your don't want, wasn't your intention to install. Pray tell, how can ANY program report on your intention. How could it possibly know if you wanted Leela installed on your computer.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #14 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:56 pm 
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You don't need to explain variations on the halting or decidability problem to us.

Antivirus programs are pretty decent at telling which software that is being installed the user likely wants on their computer (like a go program) or don't want (a keylogger, cryptolocker, worm, spambots, password sniffers). That's why 54 out of 56 programs correctly detect it's harmless. The other 2 should fix their software, and not rely on you making excuses for them just because in theory it's possible to construct a problem that the scanner can't make a decision on. That's simply not the case here.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #15 Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:55 am 
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By the way, Sysinternals Process Explorer (as many may know, they have been bought by MS) is great support here. You can replace Windows Taskmanager. You can add a "Virustotal" column and upon any look into the task manager you see the number of detected running malware tasks (of course it submits hashes and not whole files).
http://www.sysinternals.com - https://technet.microsoft.com/de-de/sys ... ssexplorer

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #16 Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:39 am 
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Heh Mods
Can we get rid of this off topic slosh on antivirus? I don't see why it needs to be associated with Leela.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #17 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:05 pm 
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I just downloaded Leela. I'm using Gogui as interface to the Leela062GTP_OpenCL engine. I'm not sure if there is any GTP setting that I have missed, but Leela's strength on my computer is not as I expected. See my game record. I stopped playing when it played on the very side which didn't make any sense.



Last edited by splee99 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #18 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:13 pm 
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Well you're obviously doing it wrong. Use the gui that comes with leela, set amount of sims to unlimited and pick minimum 30 minutes (that way it thinks for about 24 sec max per move). You can adjust this during the game if you want it to think longer and thus be stronger, or think less. Then it should be decent. Also, if you have a good gaming graphics card use GPU accelerated for more sims.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #19 Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:35 pm 
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OK Maybe I know the reason. The Open_CL version doesn't work on my computer and the normal version is much stronger.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela has a new version
Post #20 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:56 am 
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The engines run only on a 64-bit PC, right?

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