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Engine Tournament
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=13322
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Author:  as0770 [ Thu May 31, 2018 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

pnprog wrote:
I will be surprised if Zen can score 14 wins.


Against the CPU version of Leela Zero with different networks?

I think I'll keep my results private in the future. This discussions take more time than to play the games.

Bye

Author:  q30 [ Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

Last version of Pachi became weaker (details).

Author:  q30 [ Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

Last version of Ray became a bit stronger (details).
The rating of available for usual users Go engines without GPU support is next:

Highest level
1. Leela;

High level
2. Hiratuka;

Middle level
3. Pachi_DCNN;
4. Ray;
5. Pachi;
6. MoGo.

Author:  q30 [ Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

I had sparred last version of Ray with other this level engines (details).
The rating of available for usual users Go engines without GPU support is next:

Highest level
1. Leela;

High level
2. Hiratuka;

Middle level
3. Pachi_DCNN;
4&5. Ray & Pachi;
6. MoGo.

Author:  q30 [ Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

I had tested LeelaZero (details).
The rating of Go engines without using GPU is next:

Super level
1. LeelaZero;

Highest level
2. Leela;

High level
3. Hiratuka;

Middle level
4. Pachi_DCNN;
5&6. Ray & Pachi;
7. MoGo.

Author:  q30 [ Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

I had tested different LeelaZero versions with different weights details.
The rating of Go engines without using GPU is next:

Super level
1. LeelaZero;

Highest level
2. Leela;

High level
3. Hiratuka;

Middle level
4. Pachi_DCNN;
5&6. Ray & Pachi;
7. MoGo.

Author:  q30 [ Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

LeelaZero 0.14 is a bit stronger (not as much, as in case of Phoenix), than 0.15 (details)...

Author:  as0770 [ Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

q30 wrote:
LeelaZero 0.14 is a bit stronger (not as much, as in case of Phoenix), than 0.15 (details)...


My Russian is a little bit rusty. Do you seriously try to tell us v0.14 is better than v0.15 based on 6 games?

Author:  q30 [ Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

v. 0.15 seriously is not better, than v. 0.14, and most likely weaker in case of Phoenix...

Author:  as0770 [ Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

q30 wrote:
v. 0.15 seriously is not better, than v. 0.14, and most likely weaker in case of Phoenix...


Look at the changelog, it is no surprise that v0.15 is not stronger than v0.14. There are only changes for training games. Beside that it is ridiculous to draw conclusions from a 6 game match. There is a reason why the Leela Team does 400 game matches and requires a 55% score for the promotion of a network.

Author:  q30 [ Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

In these results 0.14 wins 0.15 by black and by white. The proximity to 50 % may explained by very small time control...
And what about Phoenix?

Author:  as0770 [ Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

q30 wrote:
In these results 0.14 wins 0.15 by black and by white. The proximity to 50 % may explained by very small time control...


51% winrate says nothing.

And if you play a match between two engines of the same strength the timecontrol doesn't matter. The chance of winning is 50%, no matter if you play with 1 visit, 100000 visits or with a rolling dice. You still don't understand mathematical basics.

Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

Are you trying to find the affect of the Leela Zero engine version on the strength of the bot? Whilst it could make some difference if there are algorithmic changes or parameters tuned, most of the difference will come from the version of the weights used.

Author:  as0770 [ Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

q30 wrote:
And what about Phoenix?


v0.14 doesn't even support the Phoenix network.

There was a hack of v0.14 that supported Phoenix networks, but it wasn't working correctly afaik.

Author:  q30 [ Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

as0770 wrote:
q30 wrote:
In these results 0.14 wins 0.15 by black and by white. The proximity to 50 % may explained by very small time control...


51% winrate says nothing.

And if you play a match between two engines of the same strength the timecontrol doesn't matter. The chance of winning is 50%, no matter if you play with 1 visit, 100000 visits or with a rolling dice. You still don't understand mathematical basics.

You still don't understand mathematical basics: if time control -> 0, than game of any (except pattern) engine -> to absolutely random and, respectively, the result of sparring -> 50%:50% nevertheless of engines strength...

Author:  q30 [ Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

Uberdude wrote:
Are you trying to find the affect of the Leela Zero engine version on the strength of the bot? Whilst it could make some difference if there are algorithmic changes or parameters tuned, most of the difference will come from the version of the weights used.

It may depend on code productivity, i.e. it may was appended some time waste in new version...

Author:  q30 [ Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

as0770 wrote:
q30 wrote:
And what about Phoenix?


v0.14 doesn't even support the Phoenix network.

There was a hack of v0.14 that supported Phoenix networks, but it wasn't working correctly afaik.

See here. The file of weight is the same...

Author:  as0770 [ Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

q30 wrote:
You still don't understand mathematical basics: if time control -> 0, than game of any (except pattern) engine -> to absolutely random and, respectively, the result of sparring -> 50%:50% nevertheless of engines strength...


You are riding a dead horse and make a fool out of yourself.

Leela with time=0 or visit=1 is far away from playing random. Try to win a game against it. And playing one engine against itself will result in a 50% winning chance regardless the time control. I don't know why I even have to discuss this basics again and again.

q30 wrote:
See here. The file of weight is the same...


Sometimes I wonder if you just want to fool us, but in the meantime I think you just don't understand English well enough to get the points. But in this case you should reconsider if you want to do this kind of discussions here.

Yes, the network is the same, but v.14 just can't handle it and the hack of v0.14 didn't handle it correctly.

Author:  q30 [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

I don't know English well, so I'll try to answer on that I understood (and how I understood).
Yes, if AI Leela has pattern like play in case of time -> 0, than it will be not random, but will the same sequence (with the same weight file). So with the same weight file sparring of different Leela versions will -> 50%:50%. And playing one engine (version) against itself will result in a 50% winning chance regardless the time control only in case of using the same weight file...

I don't know, what You mean under 'v.14 just can't handle it and the hack of v0.14 didn't handle it correctly', but the versions 0.14 and 0.15 by link above (i.e. of Leela Phoenix) are playing with the weight file by the same link...

Author:  as0770 [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Tournament

q30 wrote:
50% winning chance regardless the time control only in case of using the same weight file...


Or a weight file of similar strength. And once again: If one engine scores 55% in a 400 game match, there is still a chance of 1% that it is _not_ stronger.

q30 wrote:
I don't know, what You mean under 'v.14 just can't handle it and the hack of v0.14 didn't handle it correctly', but the versions 0.14 and 0.15 by link above (i.e. of Leela Phoenix) are playing with the weight file by the same link...


Your link points to LeelaZero_PhoenixGo v1 and v2 but you were talking about Leela Zero v0.14 and 0.15. LeelaZero 0.14 don't support Phoenix networks. Results of LeelaZero_PhoenixGo v1 vs. LeelaZero_PhoenixGo v2 with Phoeniox Networks don't say anything about the strength of LeelaZero v0.14 and 0.15. I wouldn't even trust results with Leela networks.

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