It is currently Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:35 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Win Rates and Visits in ELF
Post #1 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:53 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4243
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 442
Was liked: 695
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 3k
In MCTS, you expect that given adequate time, the move with the highest win percentage will also have the most visits. Is this also true for ELF? If so, how long would you expect it to take for the two to converge? I have failed to see it after a few thousand playouts, but I suppose that’s not that many.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Win Rates and Visits in ELF
Post #2 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:22 pm 
Judan

Posts: 5871
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 335
Was liked: 3137
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
A few thousand is tiny. If I want to do some serious analysis of a position I'll give Elf 50-100k playouts.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Win Rates and Visits in ELF
Post #3 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:32 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 234
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 30
Rank: 2d
hyperpape wrote:
In MCTS, you expect that given adequate time, the move with the highest win percentage will also have the most visits.
I don't think this is necessarily true, only if search did not find new moves in upper levels (or important followups below them) for a while, and there are no close candidates.

But generally, both visits and winrates will lag behind latest knowledge, only in different ways (visits can only accumulate slowly, winrates can only change by averaging into them).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Win Rates and Visits in ELF
Post #4 Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:12 am 
Tengen

Posts: 4243
Location: North Carolina
Liked others: 442
Was liked: 695
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 3k
Good point, moha. In this case, however, it's a relatively quiet opening position, with no major changes in the win percentages for each move as the simulations proceed. I'll try to post examples soon.

Uberdude: I'm aware it's a smallish simulation, but this is a "low level" property. By that, I mean I'm not asking "why isn't the engine seeing a particular move or evaluating things in the right way?" What I'm asking is "why isn't it adequately exploring the move it gives the highest percentage chance?" I would think it would not have required that many simulations. Maybe I need to work some examples with the formula from Remi's paper to get a better intuition for how fast a move will be explored.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 4 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group