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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #141 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:33 am 
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Vargo wrote:
explo wrote:
Based on using lizzie, I need around a minute to get 3200 visits on a 40b network.
On my laptop (gpu : GTX965M), I've just run such a game with twogtp (#157 at 12801 visits v. #177 at 3201 visits)
Total time was 5702s. for 286 moves, around 20s. per move. I don't know why there's such a difference...
Attachment:
sc.jpg


I wonder if it has to do with lizzie or the way something is set on my computer. I tried it again, setting an easy opening situation on lizzie with pondering off. Then turning pondering on for a minute. I ended with around 2.8 visits over the moves shown.
Earlier this afternoon, I wanted to try it on GRP to get an idea of how long it would take to review a game with lots of visits on a 40b while I'm at work. I used my last game, asked for 10k visits, and it went much faster than expected. I ended the review prematurely but I think it went through 70 moves in around a hour and a half, which is much faster than what I said about lizzie.
When I installed GRP on my laptop (with an old GPU), it changed something with openCL and things got faster on lizzie later. Is there something special I should install or set up?

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #142 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:29 pm 
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I've tried with Lizzie V0.5 and network #177, on my GTX965M. It's indeed slow, with times from 35s. to 75s. to get 3200 visits.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #143 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:17 pm 
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My test (l0 v15, validation.exe .... --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder -t 12 -q -d -r 5 --timemanage off) #157 vs #176 :

I. by visits

a). 12801:3201 (157-176.zip)
Code:
The first net is better than the second
#157 v #176 ( 227 games)
              wins        black       white
#157  134 59.03%   62 59.62%   72 58.54%
#176   93 40.97%   42 40.38%   51 41.46%
                      104 45.81%  123 54.19%
227 games played.
Status: 2 LLR 2.98898 Lower Bound -2.94444 Upper Bound 2.94444

b). 9601:3201 (157-176-1.zip)
Code:
#157 v #176 ( 54 games)
          wins        black       white
#157   31 57.41%   17 56.67%   14 58.33%
#176   23 42.59%   13 43.33%   10 41.67%
                       30 55.56%   24 44.44%
54 games played.
Status: 0 LLR 0.53734 Lower Bound -2.94444 Upper Bound 2.94444

c). 6401:3201 (157-176-2.zip)
Code:
#157 v #176 ( 60 games)
          wins        black       white
#157   22 36.67%   13 38.24%    9 34.62%
#176   38 63.33%   21 61.76%   17 65.38%
                       34 56.67%   26 43.33%
60 games played.
Status: 0 LLR -1.95476 Lower Bound -2.94444 Upper Bound 2.94444

d). 8001:3201 (157-176-3.zip)
Code:
#157 v #176 ( 68 games)
          wins        black       white
#157   35 51.47%   19 51.35%   16 51.61%
#176   33 48.53%   18 48.65%   15 48.39%
                       37 54.41%   31 45.59%
68 games played.
Status: 0 LLR -0.15023 Lower Bound -2.94444 Upper Bound 2.94444


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File comment: 12801:3201
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Last edited by nbc44 on Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #144 Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:18 pm 
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Last attachment.

P.S. to be continued


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #145 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:06 am 
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Another test (l0 v15, validation.exe .... --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder -t 12 -q -d -r 10 --timemanage off) #157 vs #178 :

a). by visits 8001:3201 (157-178.zip)

Code:
The first net is worse than the second
#157 v #178 ( 110 games)
          wins        black       white
#157   43 39.09%   21 38.18%   22 40.00%
#178   67 60.91%   34 61.82%   33 60.00%
                   55 50.00%   55 50.00%
110 games played.
Status: 1 LLR -3.00809 Lower Bound -2.94444 Upper Bound 2.94444


P.S. more better than last test :^)


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #146 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Yet another test (l0 v15, validation.exe .... --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder -t 12 -q -d -r 5 --timemanage off) #157 vs #178 :

a). by visits 9601:3201 (157-178-5.zip)
Code:
The first net is worse than the second
#157 v #178 ( 241 games)
          wins        black       white
#157  112 46.47%   57 46.34%   55 46.61%
#178  129 53.53%   66 53.66%   63 53.39%
                  123 51.04%  118 48.96%

241 games played.
Status: 1 LLR -2.95061 Lower Bound -2.94444 Upper Bound 2.94444


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #147 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:51 pm 
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So-called "time parity" test - 10 min per game.
Code:
gogui-twogtp -black "C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --gtp --weights=C:\APPS\net\d351f06e.gz -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder" -white "C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --gtp --weights=C:\APPS\net\58d1222a.gz -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder" -games 100 -sgffile 157-178-10m -auto -time 10 -komi 7.5 -verbose


Part1.
#157 (black) vs #178 : +48-52=0


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #148 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:42 am 
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Part2.
#157 (white) vs #178 : +60-40=0 (???)

Finally:

#157 vs #178 : +108-92=0


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #149 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:50 am 
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nbc44 wrote:
So-called "time parity" test - 10 min per game.
This says almost nothing without mentioning your gpu or average nps. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #150 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:55 am 
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moha wrote:
nbc44 wrote:
So-called "time parity" test - 10 min per game.
This says almost nothing without mentioning your gpu or average nps. ;)

2 х 1080ti with Temp. limit 80 C and Power limit 90%. :salute:
First two moves (part 1 & 2):
============================================
Game 0
============================================
B>> boardsize 19
B<< =
B<<
B>> clear_board
B<< =
B<<
W>> boardsize 19
W<< =
W<<
W>> clear_board
W<< =
W<<
B>> time_settings 600 0 0
B<< =
B<<
W>> time_settings 600 0 0
W<< =
W<<
B>> genmove b
Thinking at most 6.0 seconds...
NN eval=0.463478
Playouts: 5200, Win: 46.22%, PV: Q4 D4 Q16 D17 C15 C16 D15 F17 C6 F3 C4 C3 B3 C5 B4 D5 D3 B5 E3 F4 C10 O3 F2 G2 E2 H5 O4
Playouts: 11207, Win: 46.38%, PV: Q4 D4 Q16 D17 C15 C16 D15 F17 C6 F3 C4 C3 B3 C5 B4 D5 D3 B5 E3 F4 C10 O3 F2 G2 E2 H5 O4 N4

D4 -> 3257 (V: 46.53%) (N: 21.73%) PV: D4 Q4 D16 Q17 R15 R16 Q15 O17 R6 O3 R4 R3 S3 R5 S4 Q5 Q3 S5 P3 O4 R10 F3 O2 N2 P2 M5 F4 G4
Q4 -> 3234 (V: 46.54%) (N: 21.98%) PV: Q4 D4 Q16 D17 C15 C16 D15 F17 C6 F3 C4 C3 B3 C5 B4 D5 D3 B5 E3 F4 C10 O3 F2 G2 E2 H5 G6 H6
Q16 -> 3177 (V: 46.55%) (N: 21.72%) PV: Q16 D16 Q4 D3 C5 C4 D5 F3 C14 F17 C16 C17 B17 C15 B16 D15 D17 B15 E17 F16 C10 O17 F18 G18 E18 H15 O16 N16
D16 -> 3177 (V: 46.54%) (N: 21.48%) PV: D16 Q16 D4 Q3 R5 R4 Q5 O3 R14 O17 R16 R17 S17 R15 S16 Q15 Q17 S15 P17 O16 R10 F17 O18 N18 P18 M15 F16 G16
D3 -> 111 (V: 46.58%) (N: 0.72%) PV: D3 Q16 R17 R16 Q17 O17 P17 P16 O18
C4 -> 111 (V: 46.57%) (N: 0.74%) PV: C4 Q16 R17 R16 Q17 O17 P17 P16 O18 D16
Q3 -> 106 (V: 46.55%) (N: 0.72%) PV: Q3 D16 C17 C16 D17 F17 E17 E16 F18
D17 -> 105 (V: 46.59%) (N: 0.67%) PV: D17 Q4 R3 R4 Q3 O3 P3 P4 O2
Q17 -> 105 (V: 46.53%) (N: 0.75%) PV: Q17 D4 Q4 D16 Q14 R3 Q3 R4 R6 R5 Q5 S6 F17 R7
R16 -> 96 (V: 46.50%) (N: 0.73%) PV: R16 D4 C3 C4 D3 F3 E3 E4 F2
R4 -> 95 (V: 46.47%) (N: 0.75%) PV: R4 D16 D4 Q16 O4 C3 C4 D3 F3 E3 E4 F2 R14 G3
C16 -> 93 (V: 46.51%) (N: 0.68%) PV: C16 Q4 R3 R4 Q3 O3 P3 P4 O2
16.3 average depth, 36 max depth
10899 non leaf nodes, 1.25 average children
13668 visits, 4737710 nodes, 13667 playouts, 2274 n/s

B<< = D4
B<<
W>> play B D4
W<< =
W<<
W>> genmove w
Thinking at most 6.0 seconds...
NN eval=0.539948
Playouts: 1092, Win: 52.21%, PV: Q16 Q4 D16 R14 R6 C14 C6 O17 Q14 Q13 P14 R16 R17 R15 Q17 L17
1.9s left, stopping early.

Q16 -> 1288 (V: 53.69%) (N: 72.19%) PV: Q16 D16 Q4 O17 F17 O3 F3 R14 O16 N16 O15 Q17 R17 P17 R16 R11 L16 N15 Q12 R12 Q14 N13
D16 -> 374 (V: 53.91%) (N: 11.69%) PV: D16 Q16 Q4 C17 D17 C16 D15 C15 C13 C14 D14 B13 C12 B12 O17 K17 M17 G17
Q4 -> 348 (V: 53.85%) (N: 11.36%) PV: Q4 Q16 D16 C17 C16 D17 E16 E17 G17 F17 F16 G18 H17 H18 C6 D10 F4
11.6 average depth, 24 max depth
1596 non leaf nodes, 1.26 average children
2011 visits, 704502 nodes, 2010 playouts, 477 n/s

W<< = Q16
W<<
B>> play W Q16


============================================
Game 0
============================================
B>> boardsize 19
B<< =
B<<
B>> clear_board
B<< =
B<<
W>> boardsize 19
W<< =
W<<
W>> clear_board
W<< =
W<<
B>> time_settings 600 0 0
B<< =
B<<
W>> time_settings 600 0 0
W<< =
W<<
B>> genmove b
Thinking at most 6.0 seconds...
NN eval=0.458710
Playouts: 1102, Win: 44.97%, PV: Q4 D16 Q16 D4 F17 O17 F3 O3 C14 F16
Playouts: 2819, Win: 45.77%, PV: Q4 D16 Q16 D4 F17 O17 F3 O3 C14 F16 G16 F15 D17 C17

Q4 -> 778 (V: 46.33%) (N: 19.13%) PV: Q4 D16 Q16 D4 F17 O17 F3 O3 C14 F16 G16 F15 D17 C17 E17 C16
Q16 -> 774 (V: 46.32%) (N: 19.11%) PV: Q16 D4 Q4 D16 F3 O3 F17 O17 C6 F4 G4 F5 D3 C3 E3 C4 C9
D16 -> 770 (V: 46.30%) (N: 19.50%) PV: D16 Q4 Q16 D4 R6 R14 C6 C14 O3 Q6 Q7 P6 R4 R3 R5 Q3
D4 -> 767 (V: 46.31%) (N: 19.78%) PV: D4 Q16 Q4 D16 R14 R6 C14 C6 O17 Q14 Q13 P14 R16 R17 R15 Q17
C16 -> 75 (V: 46.27%) (N: 1.89%) PV: C16 Q16 D4 Q4 F16 F3 H3 C6 D6 D7 E6 C3 C5 C7 D3
D17 -> 75 (V: 46.27%) (N: 1.91%) PV: D17 D4 Q16 Q4 D14 R14 R12 O17 O16 N16 O15 R17 P17 N17 R16
Q3 -> 74 (V: 46.26%) (N: 1.91%) PV: Q3 Q16 D4 D16 Q6 C6 C8 F3 F4 G4 F5 C3 E3 G3 C4
C4 -> 74 (V: 46.25%) (N: 1.91%) PV: C4 Q4 D16 Q16 F4 F17 H17 C14 D14 D13 E14 C17 C15 C13 D17 B15 C16
R4 -> 73 (V: 46.25%) (N: 1.88%) PV: R4 D4 Q16 D16 O4 O17 M17 R14 Q14 Q13 P14 R17 R15 R13 Q17
Q17 -> 73 (V: 46.24%) (N: 1.90%) PV: Q17 Q4 D16 D4 Q14 C14 C12 F17 F16 G16 F15 C17 E17 G17 C16 E18
R16 -> 71 (V: 46.22%) (N: 1.90%) PV: R16 D16 Q4 D4 O16 O3 M3 R6 Q6 Q7 P6 R3 R5 R7 Q3 S5
D3 -> 70 (V: 46.23%) (N: 1.88%) PV: D3 D16 Q4 Q16 D6 R6 R8 O3 O4 N4 O5 R3 P3 N3 R4 P2
10.1 average depth, 19 max depth
2804 non leaf nodes, 1.31 average children
3675 visits, 1296877 nodes, 3674 playouts, 607 n/s

B<< = Q4
B<<
W>> play B Q4
W<< =
W<<
W>> genmove w
Thinking at most 6.0 seconds...
NN eval=0.531459
Playouts: 4092, Win: 53.03%, PV: Q16 D4 C16 E17 D17 E16 C14 O17 R14 Q17 R17 R18 P17 Q18 P16 R16 P18 R15 Q14 K17 R6 S14 S13 S15 P12 Q6 Q7
Playouts: 8649, Win: 53.21%, PV: Q16 D4 C16 E17 D17 E16 C14 O17 R14 Q17 R17 R18 P17 Q18 P16 R16 P18 R15 Q14 K17 R6 S14 S13 S15 P12 Q6 Q7 P6 S5 R3

Q16 -> 4408 (V: 53.36%) (N: 40.47%) PV: Q16 D4 C16 E17 D17 E16 C14 O17 R14 Q17 R17 R18 P17 Q18 P16 R16 P18 R15 Q14 K17 R6 S14 S13 S15 P12 Q6 Q7 P6 S5 R3 P7
D4 -> 4291 (V: 53.36%) (N: 39.32%) PV: D4 Q16 D17 C15 C16 D15 F17 C6 F3 C4 C3 B3 C5 B4 D5 D3 B5 E3 F4 C10 O3 F2 G2 E2 H5 O4 N4 O5 P2 R3
D16 -> 1781 (V: 53.53%) (N: 16.77%) PV: D16 D4 R16 P17 Q17 P16 R14 F17 C14 D17 C17 C18 E17 D18 E16 C16 E18 C15 D14 K17 C6 B14 B13 B15 E12 F13 F12
18.8 average depth, 42 max depth
8328 non leaf nodes, 1.26 average children
10481 visits, 3596550 nodes, 10480 playouts, 1741 n/s

W<< = Q16
W<<
B>> play W Q16

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #151 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:43 am 
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Interesting, there seems quite a visit fluctuation between positions (even for the 1st move on empty board, and even outside tree reuse?). If low-visit move bottlenecks happen randomly throughout the game, that may have an impact on 40b's results.

Edit: Never mind, I figured it out. :)

Btw, what is the actual visit fluctuation, for example between early and late positions? Does it remain within these 25-30%?

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #152 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:11 am 
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moha wrote:
Btw, what is the actual visit fluctuation, for example between early and late positions? Does it remain within these 25-30%?


FYI, "big data" in action :). Format - "black~white".

1). by visits


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #153 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:13 am 
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2). by node/s


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #154 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:51 am 
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Thanks. Looking at LZ's reported "visits" some huge swings are expected since that includes tree reuse. But it seems there actually are large fluctuations in n/s as well, which is not subject to tree reuse (it's taken as playouts/time IIRC).

Bottom line is, it's not surprising if results with fixed (asymmetrical) visits differ somewhat from fixed per-game time.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #155 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:19 am 
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Yet another so-called "time parity" test - 10 min per game.
Code:
--precision half -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder

Part1: #157 (black) vs #181 : +32-68=0

Part2: #157 (white) vs #181 : +35-65=0

Finally: #157 vs #181 : +67-133=0

Is it a miracle or just an ordinary bug of "precision half" option? A farewell to #157?

P.S. L0-next 29/09/2018


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #156 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:54 am 
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Another brick in the (same) wall
#181 v. #157 (visits=12801 for #157 and visits=3201 for 181)

#181 wins 7-3

(twogtp v1.4.10, noponder, average length : 237 moves, #157 takes 10% more time than #181)
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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #157 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Quick answer:
Code:
C:\APPS\l0gpu\validation.exe -k 157-181-10 -b C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz -n C:\APPS\net\d351f06e.gz -o "-g -v 12801 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder -t 12 -q -d --timemanage off -w" -b C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz -n C:\APPS\net\68824bbc.gz -o "-g -v 3201 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder -t 12 -q -d --timemanage off -w"

Code:
6 wins, 4 losses
10 games played.

#157 wins 6 - 4 :clap:

edit.
Code:
gogui-twogtp -black "C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --gtp --weights=C:\APPS\net\d351f06e.gz -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 -v 12801 --noponder --timemanage off" -white "C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --gtp --weights=C:\APPS\net\68824bbc.gz -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 -v 3201 --noponder --timemanage off" -games 5 -sgffile 157-181-visits -auto -komi 7.5 -verbose
&
gogui-twogtp -black "C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --gtp --weights=C:\APPS\net\68824bbc.gz -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 -v 12801 --noponder --timemanage off" -white "C:\APPS\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --gtp --weights=C:\APPS\net\d351f06e.gz -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 -v 3201 --noponder --timemanage off" -games 5 -sgffile 157-181-visits -auto -komi 7.5 -verbose

#157 wins 8 - 2 :clap: x 2

Any idea?


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #158 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:18 pm 
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We must have the same kind of PC (I have 2x1080Ti, i9-7920X), and except for your -t 12 -q -d , I have the same commands.
On mine, a 10min (per side) game lasts in fact around 820 sec, as LZ doesn't use up all its time, and a 12801v3201 visits game lasts about the same time, but slightly favours #157, as it takes 10% more time than 181.

181 won 66% of your 200 games at 10 min.

181 won 7 of its 10 games
181 won 4 of its 10 games
181 won 2 of its 10 games
that's 43% of the 30 games, but with ~10% less time than 157

I'd trust your 200 games result. Probably 3x10 games is not enough, or ... maybe it's 181's way of asking for 10% more time ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #159 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Due to the fact that your processor is faster, I suggest repeating your last test (10 games) with my settings:
Code:
validation -k 157-181 -b leelaz -n #157net -o "-g -v 12801 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder -t 12 -q -d --timemanage off -w" -b leelaz -n #181net -o "-g -v 3201 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 --noponder -t 12 -q -d --timemanage off -w"


P.S. I have 2 x 1080ti too and Xeon E5-1650 v4, win10.
P.P.S. Benchmark:
C:\>c:\apps\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --benchmark -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 -w C:\APPS\net\d351f06e.gz
Thinking at most 2678400.0 seconds...
NN eval=0.531266

Q4 -> 1299 (V: 53.45%) (N: 39.76%) PV: Q4 D16 C4 E3 D3 E4 C6 O3 R6 Q3 R3 R2 P3 Q2 P4 R4 P2 R5 Q6 K3 R14 S6 S7 S5 P8 O7 O8
D16 -> 1288 (V: 53.44%) (N: 39.54%) PV: D16 Q4 D3 C5 C4 D5 F3 C14 F17 C16 C17 B17 C15 B16 D15 D17 B15 E17 F16 C10 O17 F18 G18 E18 H15 G14 H14
D4 -> 631 (V: 53.60%) (N: 17.15%) PV: D4 Q4 D17 C15 C16 D15 F17 C6 F3 C4 C3 B3 C5 B4 D5 D3 B5 E3 F4 C10 O3 F2 G2 E2 H5
15.7 average depth, 33 max depth
2555 non leaf nodes, 1.26 average children
3219 visits, 1114455 nodes, 3218 playouts, 1443 n/s


C:\>c:\apps\l0gpu\leelaz.exe --benchmark -t 12 --gpu 0 --gpu 1 -w C:\APPS\net\68824bbc.gz
Thinking at most 2678400.0 seconds...
NN eval=0.532423
Playouts: 1029, Win: 51.61%, PV: D4 D16 Q4 C6 C14 R6 R14 F3 D6 D7 E6 C4 C3 C5 D3 J3 D9 E7
Playouts: 2454, Win: 52.53%, PV: D4 D16 Q4 C6 C14 R6 R14 F3 D6 D7 E6 C4 C3 C5 D3 J3 D9 E7 H4 H3 F4 G7 F17 C12 E15 E12 B16 E2

D4 -> 2318 (V: 53.20%) (N: 77.92%) PV: D4 D16 Q4 C6 C14 R6 R14 F3 D6 D7 E6 C4 C3 C5 D3 J3 D9 E7 H4 H3 F4 G7 F17 C12 E15 E12 B16 E2
Q4 -> 456 (V: 53.27%) (N: 8.53%) PV: Q4 D4 D16 R3 Q3 R4 Q5 R5 R7 R6 Q6 S7 R8 S8 F3 K3 H3 N3 R9 E3 F4 D6 K5
D16 -> 444 (V: 53.26%) (N: 8.65%) PV: D16 D4 Q4 R3 Q3 R4 Q5 R5 R7 R6 Q6 S7 R8 S8 F3 K3 H3 N3 R9 E3 F4 D6
13.3 average depth, 29 max depth
2567 non leaf nodes, 1.25 average children
3219 visits, 1122186 nodes, 3218 playouts, 491 n/s

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #160 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:10 am 
Lives with ko

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I don't think that the CPU is important, we have the same GPUs, and so, very similar benchmarks
Attachment:
benchmark.jpg
benchmark.jpg [ 154.28 KiB | Viewed 2202 times ]
Most probably, 10 or 30 games is not enough. For example, in your two 10 game matches, 181 doubles its winning percentage (20% and 40% , it's a huge swing). That's why I have more faith in your 200 game match :)

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