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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #221 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:19 am 
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Here we are... Another 40 game match Rn(#195) v. LZ0.16(#195)

36 games won by resignation, I've looked at some of them, and, they look ok.

Three games where both sides agree on the winner, but not on the score :
B sees B as winner (Result_B : B+9.5) and
W sees B as winner too (Result_W : B+5.5) and
the 3rd column is Result_Referee : ?

B sees W as winner (Result_B : W+4.5) and
W sees W as winner too (Result_W : W+6.5) and
the 3rd column is Result_Referee : ?

B sees W as winner (Result_B : W+48.5) and
W sees W as winner too (Result_W : W+6.5) and
the 3rd column is Result_Referee : ?
File : "rn195_lz195_2sec_c-5.sgf" in the zip

To my untrained eye, they look like unfinished business, I could understand a resignation, but not a precise score.

One game where Rn and LZ don't agree on the winner:

B sees B as winner (Result_B : B+11.5) and
W sees W as winner too (Result_W : W+8.5) and
the 3rd column is Result_Referee : ?
File : "rn195_lz195_2sec_c_LZ_B-5.sgf" in the zip

I'm calling the referee (that's you ;-) ) on these games, how can you count points ?

Anyway, discarding the 6 dubious games (out of 62 in all), it's a 56 game match, at 2sec/move
and the score is a perfect draw, at 28-28

The 40 games :
Attachment:
rn195_lz195_2sec.zip [38.18 KiB]
Downloaded 30 times

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #222 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:29 am 
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The problem is that the games are unfinished. Consider the last game rn195_lz195_2sec_c_LZ_B-5.sgf. Edit: I made a confusion with rn195_lz195_2sec_LZ_B-5.sgf

Black was leading by 1.5 point. When Black played P3, White should have protected at P1, but instead connected at G6, so Black played the last move P1. If the game had continued normally, White would have protected at Q2, then Black O2, White O1 and Black captures 6 stones with O2 (snapback), White Q1, Black O1, White R6 and Black would have won by 14.5 points (or 15.5, I don't know which rules are used to calculate the score).

So to summarize:


1) Black was leading
2) White made a gross blunder (but anyway had a lost game).
3) The game is not finished, but if continued Black would have won anyway.
4) The two players probably don't agree on the life-and-death status of the stone P1, so calculate the score differently (but still I don't understand how White can come up with a result like W+8.5).


Last edited by jlt on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #223 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:44 am 
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Thanks ! You're absolutely right about your analyse of rn195_lz195_2sec_LZ_B-5.sgf,
but LZ and Rn both agreed it was B+

The weird one is rn195_lz195_2sec_c_LZ_B-5.sgf (sorry for the confusing names...)

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #224 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:12 am 
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Oops, I indeed made a confusion between two names. The game rn195_lz195_2sec_c_LZ_B-5.sgf was unfinished, so it's impossible to count.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #225 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Sometime RLO plays PASS at losing game, because they cannot find any good move, but win rate is bigger than a resign threshold.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #226 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:57 am 
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new network 15x192 from bjiyxo is stronger lz157: 92297ff2 VS d351f06e 260 : 144 (64.36%)
http://zero.sjeng.org

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #227 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:39 am 
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100 game match between #196 and #157 at short time parity
1 min per side per game, komi 7.5 no pondering, 1x1080, LZ0.16, twogtp V1.5.0
0 duplicate game, 0 error, all games by resignation.
#196 wins 55:45
196 is now clearly stronger than 157, even at short time settings (both networks spending 0.5-0.6 sec/move)

The 100 games :
Attachment:
157_196_1minute.zip [81.87 KiB]
Downloaded 23 times
Detailed stats :
Attachment:
Pas de nom.jpg
Pas de nom.jpg [ 215.24 KiB | Viewed 1470 times ]

And wrote:
new network 15x192 from bjiyxo is stronger lz157: 92297ff2 VS d351f06e 260 : 144 (64.36%)
Very interesting !

I've launched a 100 game match at 1 min per game between #196 and this new network 92297ff2, result later.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #228 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:36 am 
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Here we are :
#196 (40x256) vs 92297ff2 (15x192) at short time parity : 1 min per side per game, komi 7.5, no pondering, 1x1080, LZ0.16, twogtp V1.5.0
0 duplicate game, 0 error, all games by resignation.

This time, #196 is not the winner :

92297ff2 v 196 : 63:37

It was to be expected, because 92297ff is stronger than #157.

The 100 games :
Attachment:
196_15x192black_1m.zip [82.36 KiB]
Downloaded 28 times
The stats :
Attachment:
Pas de nom.jpg
Pas de nom.jpg [ 685.42 KiB | Viewed 1421 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #229 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:14 am 
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I wonder if 92297ff2 is stronger than elf? (time parity)

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #230 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Vargo wrote:
Here we are :
#196 (40x256) vs 92297ff2 (15x192) at short time parity : 1 min per side per game, komi 7.5, no pondering, 1x1080, LZ0.16, twogtp V1.5.0
0 duplicate game, 0 error, all games by resignation.

This time, #196 is not the winner :



What is (maybe) unexpected, is that #196 is not as strong as #195 in some aspects. I had run some handicap games on my computer and got this feeling.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #231 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Just run two time parity games with 20 seconds per move between ELF and #196 and #196 won both games. It looks like to me that the 40b weight is indeed superior in handling large groups and taking advantage of a ko fight. However, I don't understand why #196 lost to the new 15b weight in the above tests. Maybe the game time is too short ( 1 minute )?

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #232 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:47 pm 
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splee99 wrote:
I don't understand why #196 lost to the new 15b weight in the above tests. Maybe the game time is too short ( 1 minute )?
I thinnk you're right.

I've run two more matches #196 v 92297ff at time parity :
the three results are :

1min/game (corresponding to visits=~300 and visits=~1100) #196 wins 37% (100 games, 1x1080)
5min/game (corresponding to visits=~1000 and visits=~3600) #196 wins 60% (20 games, 1x 1080)
5min/game with 2 GPU (corresponding to visits=~3000 and visits=~10800) #196 wins 65% (20 games, 2x 1080Ti)

I've done several tests to determine time-visits ratio, the results vary a lot, these correspondences are approximate.

games and stats for 2 gpus :
Attachment:
196_v_92297_5min_2gpu.zip [19.19 KiB]
Downloaded 23 times
Attachment:
2gpu.jpg
2gpu.jpg [ 247.26 KiB | Viewed 1302 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #233 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:36 am 
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20 games is enough for a confident conclusion? I doubt, especially considering the slight advantage

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #234 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:29 am 
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And wrote:
20 games is enough for a confident conclusion?
20 games is not nearly enough, but each of these 20 game match is almost 3 hours...
After several such matches, we can hopefully see a trend.

Ideally, this kind of match should be... 400 games, for example ;-)
To do this, one possiblity would be to find 20 people OK to run a 20 game match with the same parameters including -v 1000 for #196 and -v 3600 for #92297ff, so, we would have 400 games at time parity, and at the same strength, I think -v 1000 and -v 3600 should be at near time parity on any machine (?)
But it would probably be more useful for people to donate their GPU time to autogtp.

Anyway, I ran 40 more games on each machine, and after 60 games, #196's winrate has gone down.

5min/game (corresponding to visits=~1000 and visits=~3600) #196 wins 52% (31:29, 1x 1080)
5min/game with 2 GPU (corresponding to visits=~3000 and visits=~10800) #196 wins 52% too (31:29, 2x 1080Ti)

I'll upload stats and/or games if someone wants them.


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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #235 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:41 am 
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thanks! after such a result (52%) is not the fact that #196 is stronger

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #236 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:03 am 
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Strange, why there is no new network 92297ff2 in the table "Best Network Hash"? (http://zero.sjeng.org) for example, under the number 197. it is logical and convenient

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #237 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:43 am 
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Because this network is not trained the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #238 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:28 am 
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And wrote:
Strange, why there is no new network 92297ff2 in the table "Best Network Hash"? (http://zero.sjeng.org) for example, under the number 197. it is logical and convenient

It's a 15-block network, which played a test match against the previous best 15-block network, not against the current best 40-block network.

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #239 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:53 am 
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In the table there are other networks 15x192 (weaker) and from bjiyxo. where then to look for this network, if not in this table? the strongest 15x192!

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 Post subject: Re: LZ's progression
Post #240 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:02 am 
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Each entry in the table is stronger than the entry before it (reading from bottom to top). To put this latest 15-block network one in, they'd have to either break that rule or change all the numbers or call this network 157a or something. Maybe they should have used a 2-dimensional numbering scheme.

I agree that it would be nice to have a place to easily find the best 15-block network.

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