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 Post subject: Re: LeelaZero adventures on Fox
Post #101 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:32 pm 
Honinbo

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Here's why I think so.

White 314 loses 6% ????? Well, Black is considered to be ahead at this point, so that may just be the win rate approaching 100%. But that underscores the problem of using consecutive win rate estimates to indicate mistakes.

White 310 loses more than 3% ????? Here there is no excuse that Black is ahead. even after White 310 Black is estimated to be ahead.

White 302 gains 1/3 pt. (I am using territory scoring.) Is this a mistake at area scoring? Possibly, depending upon the ko fight. At territory scoring canonical play is for White to take the 1/2 pt. ambiguous sente on the top (White 304) and then take the 1/2 pt. gote at 303. Then Black can take the ko at 302, but White has a local ko threat. (Edit: I have looked at the ko fight. Black is komaster, but I don't think he has enough ko threats to make White filling the ko superior.)

Black 301 gains 1/2 pt. It is miai with 303, but worse for ko threats. Canonical play is at 304, ambiguous 1/2 pt. reverse sente.

White 300 gains 1/2 pt. Again, canonical play is at 304.

White 298 gains 2/3 pt. (ambiguous reverse sente). Canonical play is at 299, gaining 3/4 pt.

White 294 (saving 2 stones) loses more than 1%, with White ahead?

Black 267 gains 3%????? With White ahead? Surely that indicates a previous misestimation.

White 256 loses 6%????? Even versus the variation? Really?

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 Post subject: Re: LeelaZero adventures on Fox
Post #102 Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:42 am 
Judan

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LZ has improved (in self-play Leelo at least) quite rapidly in the last few weeks, here's a game (LZ black) with 214. Opponent held his own fairly respectably until he died in the wrong way at top right (because he didn't make miai of saving the dead group or doing mean things to bottom right corner). A fun ko at top left, with him making nice use of the technique of playing out lower side to create some large ko threats, with LZ's decision to end the ko because it knew it could sacrifice the lower stones in an effective way to build some centre points was impressive (answer threat was not bad, but just something like 96 instead of 97%).



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 Post subject: Re: LeelaZero adventures on Fox
Post #103 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:15 pm 
Judan

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A game with latest netwoek #223. Not sure if the opponent was a bot, he always used 25 seconds per move for a while and only lost advantage slowly, but then messed up a fight and didn't resign for ages. I thought LZ's judgement of when to play solidly to settle, when to sacrifice, when to play severely was interesting. LZ's winrate slowly grew until he messed up a fight and game over. Highlights:
- move 26 white should have d9 sente first to stop black making some eyespace there.
- 41: LZ wanted r7 extend but lighter r8 was a promising blue circle, I played out a few moves and winrate stayed higher so I picked it.
- 48 was mistake, should n4 or l7 and make a mess. So why didn't LZ want to atari there before j4? And why did it want to atari there now rather than directly l7 (-1%). I wonder if something to do with white j2 in a sequence wanting to be gote. Or is it just if black makes the territory it's double sente yose?
- 65 don't often see LZ make this block, but quick life and makes r11 wrong
- 69 cut was preferred to (natural to me) o16 (-7%) getting out even though it then didn't run with it and just went back to living in corner. I think the option of q12 atari to help reduce a w moyo and make w bad shape was why.
- 76 o16 slow, should f17
- 77 interesting that LZ picked this way to attack, it is mutual base of 2 unsettled groups but struck me as slow compared to top side (e.g. g17 -3%). But it judges strength and weakness of groups here as urgent and doesn't mind if white extends on top, because by attacking this group we can expect to keep top under control
- 81 voila, black d9 group is now essentially alive whilst white group weak and only now does black play top side in good rhythm.
- 83 another lesson, attack from 2nd line not centre!
- 95 W should answer this peep in centre and black is 65% (see sgf var - it's in a way that means if black cuts white group has exit route and black has ugly shape. e18 was an invasion point but he got timing wrong. Now he starts making big mistakes, maybe his bot crashed.

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