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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #121 Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:55 pm 
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y_ish san,

First I want to say that I am really happy that your program exist! :-)

I have a small issue. When KataGo reaches 1000 playouts, it stops it's search, even if I have allowed more time. It seams that the maxPlayouts is set to 1000. Can you check if that is the case? And maybe remove that in future releases so longer thinking times is possible?

For me it would be very useful to be able to set maxVisits in settings, so I wish for that :-)

About the settings; which of the settings is used for KataGo?
ResignTreshold, VirtualLoss, StochasticOpening, Cint, softmax...

I just NOW noticed that KataGo v1.3 was released!
What is your plan about that?

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #122 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Limeztone san,

Thank you for using my app!
And I am sorry for inconvenience.

There should be no limits such a small number of "maxPlayouts".
The engine would stop normally in study mode,
1. if you set "Max time per position(sec.)" to finite value in the settings menu, or
2. if available memory runs out, which you may feel like "maxPlayouts".

Could you tell me your device and iOS version?
I will check a behavior by correspondent simulator.

For KataGo, only "Resign Threshold" is effective in the AI engine parameters.
And "Batch Size" and "Pondering" are also effective.

Of course, I started to prepare next version for KataGo v1.3!^^

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #123 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:38 pm 
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y_ich san,

> There should be no limits such a small number of "maxPlayouts".

> The engine would stop normally in study mode,
> 1. if you set "Max time per position(sec.)" to finite value in the settings menu, or
> 2. if available memory runs out, which you may feel like "maxPlayouts".

The thing is that the output says "1000playouts 22eps"!
1000 exactly! And always "22eps", I think. If I set the time limit close to what is needed for 1000p then the output sometimes says a lower value. But it NEVER excedes 1000. If I enter a hight time limit the search stops about when 1000 playouts should be done.

And to be clear, it's not study mode as you write above, it's game mode. I have not dared to change the time setting for study yet :-) There is no problem in study mode! The search does not stop in study mode at 1000 playouts.

In study mode the playouts are updated continously for KataGo.
But in play (game) mode the playouts are only printed at the end of the search.
Also there is only "eps" in the printout for game mode In study mode there is "nps" and "eps".

When running Leela the playouts are displayed continiously also in game mode.

> Could you tell me your device and iOS version?
iOS 13.1.1
iPadAir 2019 (third generation)
batchsize 1

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #124 Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:26 pm 
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Limeztone san,

For game mode, you can change "Time per move" just before starting a game.
(And pondering is also available.)

Regards.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #125 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:20 am 
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i_ich san,

your reply implies that you don't fully understand what I try to report.
Naturaly I know that I can set the time limit for game mode!
How would I else notice the issue with a playout cap at 1000?

Fellow users, am I the only one that stumble on this problem.
Is there anyone here that uses KataGo and get longer playouts (than 1000) in game mode?

Regards,
Limez

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #126 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:08 am 
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Yes, I can confirm these issues.

In "play mode" using Leela Zero, it continuously updates playouts, "nps" and "eps".

Using KataGo, it does NOT update playouts, but only shows the word "nps" without a value.

After the AI made a move, it shows playouts and nps (but not "eps"). And the "playouts" are never higher than exactly 1000.

Also, there seems to be a problem with the network name that is displayed in play mode. I first selected LeelaMaster GX89, started play mode, played a move, resigned, quit out of study mode, switched to KataGo 10b and started play mode again. But it still showed "LeelaMaster GX89" as the network name.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #127 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:01 pm 
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Marcel wrote> After the AI made a move, it shows playouts and nps (but not "eps").

Interesting that you get "nps" but not "eps" as I get "eps" and not "nps".

(But before the AI makes any move, only the word "nps" is displayed and nothing more, just as you wrote)

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #128 Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:53 pm 
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Limeztone san,

I am sorry that I totally misunderstood your comments.
Now I have reproduced what you are saying. I will investigate it.

Printing only nps (no eps) in play mode by KataGo is normal.
(Original KataGo does not output evaluations per sec, and I extended only for study mode.)

Thank you for your patience.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #129 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:57 am 
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y_ich san,

I think my request was lost in our earlier conversation.

Is it possible for you to add a setting for KataGo i you excellent app?
It would be very useful for me to be able to set "maxVisits" (value in KataGo config).

I think setting max visits is a good hardware independent way to control the playing strength.
If I use 3200 visits on my computer and 3200 visits on my iPad the playing strength of KataGo should be about the same. It will only take KataGo longer to respond on the iPad.

Thanks in advance :-)
Regards,
Limez

PS I'm impressed how quick you fixed the issue I reported! That is excellent support!

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #130 Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:06 pm 
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Limeztone san,

You are lucky because Apple's app review started soon and ended quickly this time^^

I need to consider how to make the settings for KataGo available for users.

Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #131 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:08 am 
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Dear y-ish san,
I first want to congratulate you for your impressive work ; I am waiting impatiently for Katago v.1.3.
A few suggestions and remarks : 1) in study mode, it would be nice to have a pass option (as in play mode). 2) The colour of the current move suggested (in study mode) should be easier to distinguish from other plays (a nice pink, for instance ?) ; also, in the first information window (with horizontal bars), the best move is a little too far on the right, masking the coordinates of the move. 3) When we look for variations with Leela, it goes quickly to 20 or 30 moves deep, but it seems Katago is blocked on 10 moves variations ; is it a feature or a bug ? But mostly, those are minor flaws, and I must again thank you a lot for what you have done.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #132 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:33 pm 
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Dfeldmann san,

Thank you for using my app and your comments!

I will consider about your comments.

About KataGo v1.3, it already works functionally on the app, but I am failing to tune the weights in order to use Neural Engine. they are extremely slower than v1.2 on A12 and later processors.

It was a kind of small miracle for the previous weight to run on Neural Engine.
(I cannot explain logically why it became to run on.)

Please pray good luck for me this time^^

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #133 Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:43 am 
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y_ich-san,

When trying to open an SGF file from the iCloud drive in the Files app, there is a message "It doesn't look like a text file. UTF-8 is required as character code." But the file only consists of ASCII characters.

In that case, the app seems to be in an undefined state. There is an empty board and the winrate graph at the top, but no menu bar at the bottom with which I could return to the home screen. So I have to force-quit the app and restart.

In order to get an SGF file from the Files app into "A Master of Go", I have to share it to "SmartGo Kifu" first, then use that app's share dialog to "Copy" the SGF, which I can then paste into "A Master of Go".

Also, sometimes when opening a file by sharing it from another app, "A Master of Go" crashes. When I open it again, it's fine. This seems to happen more if I am in study mode, then put the app in the background for some time.

Has anyone else encountered these issues?

Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #134 Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:03 am 
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Grünauer san,

Thank you for reporing issues!

1. "It doesn't look like a text file. UTF-8 is required as character code." message basically appears when you haven't downloaded a file from iCloud yet. Please download it via info menu.
The behavior after the error message is certainly a bug. I have fixed it for the next version.
2. A few functionalities related "share button" seem still buggy on iOS 13. I am sorry for your inconvenience.

Thank you for your cooperations.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #135 Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:40 pm 
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I released "A Master of Go" version 5.0.0 with KataGo v1.3.
On iPad Pro(A12X), g170-b20c256x2 weight achieves more than 60 evaluations per second(eps) and if you use lighter g170e-b10c128, eps is more than 200.

Enjoy!


This post by y_ich was liked by 3 people: Limeztone, Marcel Grünauer, wineandgolover
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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #136 Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:19 am 
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y_ich wrote:
I released "A Master of Go" version 5.0.0 with KataGo v1.3.
On iPad Pro(A12X), g170-b20c256x2 weight achieves more than 60 evaluations per second(eps) and if you use lighter g170e-b10c128, eps is more than 200.

I am so happy that you managed get KataGo-1.3 to work in your app!
I really like the way you now display "next move" in study mode!

Here is my thoughts:
- the naming of the KataGo weights as "g170-b20c256x2" is not the best of choice. There are currently (3) three released weights with names beginning like that. So some different naming is needed!
- It would be very useful if the name of the current selected weight file was displayed in the dialog from where one start game/study. Now one have to enter setup and scroll down to see that information (before starting). The text at the top of that dialog is not really needed and could be replaced with the name of the current weight file.
- Is it hard work for you to make the new 15b weight file for KataGo (g170e-15b) available for download? I have a strong feeling that will be the net I will use when playing on my iPad Air.
- I think that being able to set "number of visits per move" would be very useful as that is the way to make the AIs strength independent from once hardware. So I wish for that again :-)
- It would be great if there was an easy way to share a game just played on Pandanet to your app. Right now there is no "easy" way as I see it.


EDIT:
As for weight naming, "g170-20b-s1.42G" and "g170e-10b-s1.14G" would be an unique (and good enough) naming (according to lightvector). So I suggest that for a short :-)

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #137 Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 5:01 am 
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Limeztone san,

I am glad to see that you seem happy^^

As KataGo weights seems update not frequently, I will keep the latest weight in the app and will manage by KataGoGXXX_bYYcZZZetc.

Now I am considering to move the weight choice to main menu. Please wait for a while.

Publishing another KataGo weights on the net itself is easy, but I have not decide the internal metadata for downloading yet. Please wait for a while, too.

About "number of visits per move", I answered previously and no change of answer currently.

I think that you can ask Pandanet for your request as it is how to export an SGF file. They seems provide it only for e-mail.

Thank you for your comments!

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #138 Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:56 pm 
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y_ich wrote:
As KataGo weights seems update not frequently, I will keep the latest weight in the app and will manage by KataGoGXXX_bYYcZZZetc.

But unfortunately that means that your users don't know which net it is. Right now I don't know if it is g170-b20c256x2-s1039565568-d285739972 or g170-b20c256x2-s1420141824-d350969033. Removing "c256x2" and replace it with "s1033" or "s1420" would help a lot. Eg KataGoG170b20s1033. "c256x2" is kind of redundant.

y_ich wrote:
Now I am considering to move the weight choice to main menu. Please wait for a while.

May be you did not really understand, I don't want to be able to select the weight in the main menu. I just want it to be displayed there. So I know which net I'm about to play against. I thought it was a good idea, but if it's hard work, let it be.

y_ich wrote:
Publishing another KataGo weights on the net itself is easy, but I have not decide the internal metadata for downloading yet. Please wait for a while, too.

But PLEASE, include g170e-b15 in your next and future releases! As that will be a great net to play against. (and fast enough)

y_ich wrote:
I think that you can ask Pandanet for your request as it is how to export an SGF file. They seems provide it only for e-mail.

That is not true! It is not abvious, but if you hold down on one of your played games (sgf) for a second or two. A dialog with more choices will appear! I think it should be possible for you to make your app show up in that dialog.

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #139 Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Limeztone san,

1. You can think that it is the latest one.
(I do not like to discuss about this issue. I will change it when I think that I need.)

2. I understand your request. My plan will satisfy your request.

3. Please wait for a while.

4. Thank you for your information! I tried holding down sgf in Panda shows and it shows the app icon. I am sorry that it seems an iOS 13 bug in your case.

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: A Go AI app for iOS with that strong neural network
Post #140 Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:38 pm 
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y_ich san,
y_ich wrote:
Limeztone san,
4. Thank you for your information! I tried holding down sgf in Panda shows and it shows the app icon. I am sorry that it seems an iOS 13 bug in your case.
Thank you!

Very true! I updated to the very last version of iOS 13 and magically, there your app was!!
Thanks!

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