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 Post subject: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #1 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:40 am 
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Looks like a new version of Crazy Stone (known in Japan as "saikyou no igo" = "the strongest Go") will be released for PC on Nov 16th.

http://www.unbalance.co.jp/igo/sigoZero/

A very strong engine that makes human-like moves should be interesting. I hope there will be an iOS version as well.

Although https://www.4gamer.net/games/437/G043722/20181011081/ says "人間の棋譜を使用せずに,自己対戦のみで九段の強さに到達した", so this means no human games were used. But it also says that it makes human-like moves and that it has a win rate of 95% against the previous version. We'll see.


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Post #2 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:47 am 
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Hi Marcel,
Quote:
日本語Windows® 7/8/8.1/10 (32/64bit)
Quote:
I hope there will be an iOS version as well.
That'd be nice.
Quote:
a win rate of 95% against the previous version.
Very roughly speaking, is it fair to say it's at least 1-stone better than the previous version ?
( Curious about its winrate giving 2 stones to the previous version. )

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Post #3 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:49 am 
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EdLee wrote:
1-stone better than the previous version ?
( Curious about its winrate giving 2 stones to the previous version. )


Probably more.

At dan ranks 100 ELO is about one rank, and 95% win rate is around 350(?) so it should be three to four stones stronger.

All the values are rough, someone with more love for math than me might give you a more accurate answer.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #4 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:05 am 
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95% winrate between similar programs A and B is not the same as 95% winrate between program A and a human with the same Elo rank as program B.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #5 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:10 am 
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Denniss Hassabis said Alphago performs better against weaker versions of itself than it does against weaker humans. It's likely the same for all AI.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #6 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:48 am 
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Elom wrote:
Denniss Hassabis said Alphago performs better against weaker versions of itself than it does against weaker humans. It's likely the same for all AI.


The self play trap?

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #7 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:20 am 
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I imagine that this could be true of people, if we could freeze someone's play and have them play against themselves. A significant part of what you learn is identifying your own bad patterns. It just might be the case that AI is more predictable (and learns primarily through self-play) so it is even better at exploiting its past selves' weaknesses.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #8 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:42 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
I imagine that this could be true of people, if we could freeze someone's play and have them play against themselves. A significant part of what you learn is identifying your own bad patterns. It just might be the case that AI is more predictable (and learns primarily through self-play) so it is even better at exploiting its past selves' weaknesses.


Well, with self play, that's what it is trained to do. Perhaps diminishing returns kick in, in terms of points. That is, even with the same win rate difference, the wins get smaller and smaller. But against other players with different strengths and vulnerabilities, at some point those small refinements do not produce the same win rate differences.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #9 Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:14 am 
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Unfortunately there is no information if a GPU is supported, only CPU requirements are mentioned.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #10 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:55 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:

The self play trap?


:)

But I don't think developers would use others engines to showcase the strength of their own.

hyperpape wrote:
I imagine that this could be true of people, if we could freeze someone's play and have them play against themselves. A significant part of what you learn is identifying your own bad patterns. It just might be the case that AI is more predictable (and learns primarily through self-play) so it is even better at exploiting its past selves' weaknesses.


There may be some human examples :).

If a lone NN network is a hundred percent savant and zero percent seer, couldn't that both either pronounce or diminish the effect of doing well in self-play? I'm sure search balances things out, but not quite so much that pure bots can spot ladders :lol:.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #11 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:05 am 
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Who do I have to kill for a version for linux?

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #12 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:24 am 
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There is a version for android.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #13 Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:28 am 
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Very cool, but for those with no money you can use leela master by pangafu for more human-like moves in a bot. Just use it with sabaki or lizzie as you would another weight like 40 block or elf. The most recent weights from 15 block G series (which is what you should get) has 70% human weights if I understand correctly, and I'd say it is at least on par with LZ 157 if not stronger.

https://github.com/pangafu/LeelaMasterWeight

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #14 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:44 am 
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Crazy Stone Zero ON SALE
https://www.amazon.co.jp/アンバランス-最強の囲碁-Zero/dp/B07J9Z3R6C

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #15 Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:28 am 
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Has anyone bought it and tried it, yet? Can new Crazy Zero precisely count difference in points?

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #16 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Would the new version be released on steam or something?

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #17 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:23 pm 
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And wrote:
Crazy Stone Zero ON SALE
https://www.amazon.co.jp/アンバランス-最強の囲碁-Zero/dp/B07J9Z3R6C

The jp Amazon doesn’t deliver overseas right

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #18 Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:17 am 
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Glummie wrote:
And wrote:
Crazy Stone Zero ON SALE
https://www.amazon.co.jp/アンバランス-最強の囲碁-Zero/dp/B07J9Z3R6C

The jp Amazon doesn’t deliver overseas right


They do for books. For other things I've used tenso as a reshipper. For crazystone, I've just used download from the company's web page, and it worked fine.

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #19 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:49 am 
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oren wrote:
Glummie wrote:
For crazystone, I've just used download from the company's web page, and it worked fine.

Can you explain a bit more, please? Like, is there an english version of Crazy Stone Zero, does it understand ladders (that Elf can't understand), can it count points? Examples from real games in these 3 areas would be a huge thank you. I'd like to buy if all of these prove as a positive. Especially ladders and teritory counting. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: "saikyou no igo zero" (Crazy Stone)
Post #20 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:10 pm 
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oren wrote:
is there an english version of Crazy Stone Zero, does it understand ladders (that Elf can't understand), can it count points?

You should probably ask the author by mail, or post your questions at computer-go.org, he often posts there.
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