Life In 19x19https://lifein19x19.com/ Predicted ownership heatmapshttps://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16401 Page 1 of 1

 Author: lightvector [ Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:13 pm ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps 34 small knightStrong hold on the corner. The light spot at C15 is because in the current metagame the net likes that attachment against this enclosure for white, so this reflects the probability that white will do that in the future and end up owning that spot on the board.Attachment: 34knight.png [ 84.41 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ] 44 big knightWeaker hold on the corner. The light spot at D16 is because in the current metagame the net likes that attachment against this enclosure for white, so this reflects the probability that white will do that in the future and end up owning that spot on the board.Attachment: 34longknight.png [ 84.17 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ] 44 small knightGenerally doesn't hold the corner territory as well as 34 small knight.Attachment: 44knight.png [ 84.06 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ]

 Author: lightvector [ Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:19 pm ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps 34 small jumpIt's not very pronounced, but D17 and G17 appear to be slightly lighter than what would fit the general gradient, presumably reflecting the fact that in the current metagame, white is slightly more likely to play those points than arbitrary points against this corner enclosure.Attachment: 34jump.png [ 84.05 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ] 34 long jumpAttachment: 34longjump.png [ 83.93 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ] 44 short jumpThe 3-3 point is a bit lighter, white might invade there later and own that point.Attachment: 44jump.png [ 84 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ]

 Author: lightvector [ Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:21 pm ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps 44 long knightThe 3-3 point is more a possible future invasion spot for white now than with smaller enclosures.Attachment: 44longknight.png [ 84.16 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ] 44 long jumpNow the 3-3 point is even more likely for white to invade in the future.Attachment: 44longjump.png [ 83.92 KiB | Viewed 1345 times ]

 Author: ez4u [ Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:14 pm ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps Interesting! Three quick questions:1. What are the 'pure' colors for Black and White? You mention the 'pink' under the 4-4 stone as 90% probability. On my screen, the 4-4 under the white stone appears light blue. Yet overall blue/purple seems to indicate Black ownership rather than White.2. On the Black side of the 4-4 map, C17 is a lighter blue than B18. Does this mean that the net predicts a higher probability that White will own C17 than B18? If so, how might that be possible?3. On the 4-4 map K17 and K18 (under the middle star point) are more blue than not, i.e. the map is not symmetrical. Does this reflect the fact that Black plays first?

 Author: lightvector [ Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:04 pm ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps ez4u wrote:Interesting! Three quick questions:1. What are the 'pure' colors for Black and White? You mention the 'pink' under the 4-4 stone as 90% probability. On my screen, the 4-4 under the white stone appears light blue. Yet overall blue/purple seems to indicate Black ownership rather than White.2. On the Black side of the 4-4 map, C17 is a lighter blue than B18. Does this mean that the net predicts a higher probability that White will own C17 than B18? If so, how might that be possible?3. On the 4-4 map K17 and K18 (under the middle star point) are more blue than not, i.e. the map is not symmetrical. Does this reflect the fact that Black plays first?1. The pure colors are very bright pink (not far from white), and very bright teal (not far from white). The color scheme started with only as a mapping from positive numbers (red to orange to yellow to green to teal and bright teal), which is great and intuitive for looking things like probabilities of moves, and then later I realized that some of the other heatmaps you'd want to display also contain negative numbers, so I sort of just arbitrarily picked another curve that winds through the blues and purples and pinks.2. Yes. It isn't surprising to me that sequences where white owns 3-3 but not 2-2 could be more common than ones where white owns 2-2 but not 3-3. If white invades 3-3, it should be pretty rare that this stone will sacrificed, but some sequences still lead to black owning 2-2 even though 3-3 survives. For example, see one of the middle diagrams in Uberdude's post in https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 0&p=2258073. Neat observation. Yes, I think there is generally a very slight and diffuse bias towards blue (black ownership) in the opening due to black going first. White gets komi, but komi of course is not ownership on the board. I wouldn't be necessarily sure that the neural net is correct about where those points manifest on average though, it's a pretty subtle signal for the neural net to try to fit better than simply a slight overall bias towards blue given all the other demands on the net's capacity.

 Author: Uberdude [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:18 am ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps This pattern of reduced influence at points the opponent is likely to approach/invade/attach in actual play, and the same shape shimari different distance from the edge of the board have drastically different heatmap rather than just translations, is exactly the sort of thing I wanted to see which a static decaying lines of force type of influence map can't do. Great work, thanks.

 Author: ez4u [ Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:32 am ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps lightvector wrote:ez4u wrote:...2. On the Black side of the 4-4 map, C17 is a lighter blue than B18. Does this mean that the net predicts a higher probability that White will own C17 than B18? If so, how might that be possible?......2. Yes. It isn't surprising to me that sequences where white owns 3-3 but not 2-2 could be more common than ones where white owns 2-2 but not 3-3. If white invades 3-3, it should be pretty rare that this stone will sacrificed, but some sequences still lead to black owning 2-2 even though 3-3 survives. For example, see one of the middle diagrams in Uberdude's post in https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 0&p=225807... Of course! My crufty, pre-AI knowledge is showing through.

 Author: pnprog [ Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:27 am ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps lightvector wrote:In case Uberdude or anyone else is interested based on his earlier post in that other thread about how different corner moves have very distinctive effects on corner ownership that normal influence maps don't necessarily capture well - I have a 15-block neural net now that is perhaps on-par with LZ120 in strength. One of the things it's trained to do is directly predict who owns each spot on the board at the end of the game.This is interesting, thanks for sharing!Could you elaborate a bit more on how you trained that network?I am curious about something: if you sum up those percentage values for each free intersection of the board, will that give you the estimated score? (you would need values between -1 and 1, but that's a detail).Estimated score (like B+3.25469887) without the ownership heatmap is already a valuable information

 Author: lightvector [ Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:55 am ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps Training via self-play. Yes, you'd get a score estimate, but it wouldn't be necessarily that good, because unless you explicitly make the neural net care also about getting the sum of all points right (rather than only caring about predicting each individual point right), the small errors could sometimes accumulate into a large error as you sum across the board, and wouldn't necessarily always cancel out.It wouldn't be that hard to add a bit more scaffolding to make that work though. I'm working on it...

 Author: pnprog [ Thu May 02, 2019 8:32 pm ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps Hi lightvector!Have you make some progress on this project? or new development?

 Author: lightvector [ Sun May 05, 2019 4:23 pm ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps Ah, thanks for the bump! Yeah, for ownership heatmaps and score reporting, there is a bit of news, which I forgot that I never posted to this forum.Mostly still doing ground-level research on KataGo (and finding some things that could give another factor of 2 or 3 speedup!). So far haven't spent a lot of time on UI and tools. I figure I want to try to get things a bit more competitive with other bots first in terms of the actual final strength of the network. LZ130-level, while quite strong, is still quite a ways below the best networks out there that have been trained with greatly more resources.Despite that, not too long ago, I did add a "kata-analyze" GTP command to the GTP engine, which works very similarly to "lz-analyze", except that it also has the ability to report in real time during the search:* A prediction of the mean final score at the end of the game (i.e. "how many points is the player ahead or behind by")* A heatmap of predicted final ownership across the board.If tools like Lizzie could pull that in, that would be really fun. And I also made one-off visualization for a local demo I was doing (sadly, not a review tool, just a visualization). I posted the resulting videos here, showing examples of the real-time ownership during some self-play games.https://www.dropbox.com/s/svoybd565u6qf ... 1.mp4?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/dmrs8rgzzukeo ... 2.mp4?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/is7xsc1839guk ... 3.mp4?dl=0Attachment: ownershipmoviescreenshot.png [ 210.98 KiB | Viewed 348 times ] I'd be very happy if someone who works on one of the many existing GUIs or analysis tools out there wanted to go ahead and add support in their tool for this.

 Author: RĂ©mi [ Thu May 09, 2019 5:26 am ] Post subject: Re: Predicted ownership heatmaps Note that gogui can simply display such color maps:https://www.kayufu.com/gogui/analyze.html(see "cboard" analyze command)https://github.com/Remi-Coulom/gogui/releases

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