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AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16417
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Author:  jlt [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Your last message seems to imply that you disagree with Bill, but you don't really explain why.

Author:  Aidoneus [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

jlt wrote:
Here is a totally artificial board position where LZ157 thinks that tenuki is better.


IMHO, this is simply another example, like ladders, in which the AI isn't looking far enough ahead.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Here is a Deep Leela board to illustrate the point.



Explanation of the diagram:

The White 3-3 stone in the bottom right corner is there to minimize the possible necessity for White to kill the enclosed Black group on the bottom side in order to make its own group live.

The Black stones on the rest of the board are there to make the whole board, in Deep Leela's estimation approximately equal with Black to play, while leaving as much of the board open. In playing around with Deep Leela, I have discovered that it makes the best decisions, from a human point of view, when it thinks that the game is even. (I don't know about other bots.)

Given that, Deep Leela prefers Black A - D in order, with all of them worth around a 50% win rate. There are other possible moves in the top right corner and right side with approximately 50% win rates that I did not show. Black E is on Deep Leela's radar, while K-01 is not, but with a win rate estimate of around 40%. :D

Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Aidoneus wrote:
But I guess my wink was wasted, yes?


Winks are never wasted, are they? ;-) ;-) ;-) :blackeye: :blackeye: :blackeye: :cool: :cool: :cool: :mrgreen:

Author:  Aidoneus [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Bill Spight wrote:
Explanation of the diagram:

Given that, Deep Leela prefers Black A - D in order, with all of them worth around a 50% win rate.


I am quite surprised that B is its second choice. Would you mind offering some of your dan-level insight? :bow:

Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Aidoneus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Explanation of the diagram:

Given that, Deep Leela prefers Black A - D in order, with all of them worth around a 50% win rate.


I am quite surprised that B is its second choice. Would you mind offering some of your dan-level insight? :bow:


Sorry for not being clear. Deep Leela's second choice is actually the 4-4 in the top right. B is the second area that it likes. But all of the plays it suggests, except for killing the group, have estimated win rates of around 50%.

Author:  Aidoneus [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Bill Spight wrote:
Aidoneus wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Explanation of the diagram:

Given that, Deep Leela prefers Black A - D in order, with all of them worth around a 50% win rate.


I am quite surprised that B is its second choice. Would you mind offering some of your dan-level insight? :bow:


Sorry for not being clear. Deep Leela's second choice is actually the 4-4 in the top right. B is the second area that it likes. But all of the plays it suggests, except for killing the group, have estimated win rates of around 50%.


I see, after some move in the top right, its second area is a move on the side (B). Thank you for the clarification.

Author:  jaca [ Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Bill Spight wrote:
K-01
Dear Sir,

On behalf of the Campaign for United Columnar Kinship Open Operations, I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the unfair discrimination against our gender - why should Rowars get twice as much space as us?! We work just as hard as them to label jamjars, so we deserve equal representation.

Yours Apoplectically,

Lt.Col. Pankhurst, E., Mrs. (retd.),
Tunbridge Wells
----------------------------------

BS-PS
Aidoneus wrote:
I am quite surprised that B is its second choice.
Dear Sir,

On behalf of the Dans Obeisance to Pippen Exultation Society, I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about this Insidious Succurilous Implied Slight upon the Holy name of our Glorious Overlord's glorious Pippen-Fuseki (swt).

Of course the side is Bigger than the corner! Everyone knows that B is the Beautiful, Best, Biggest, Billion Bullion Bubble Bush Sr, Bush Jr, Boris Bus Bullocks,... sorry, i can't think of any other words Beginning with B.

Code:
In the Beginning was the B, and the B was with Pippen, and the B was Pippen - Thou shalt have no other Go but Pippen-Fuseki - Pippen Uber Balles - Ballons, enfants de la Patrie de Pippen!
(sung to the tune of Rule Britannia-Pippen)

Author:  jaca [ Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AI vs Dummies - Dummies win?

Aidoneus wrote:
I don't believe tenuki
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Michael Redmond wrote:
This large shimari wasn't played much until Alphago started playing it in the Master series
and now the tossers down my end of a back street do it all the time. Monkey see, monkey do.. but we are all simian, so it's maybe not a bad strategy, for all young children initially learn by imitation too.

So far, so good - by why did Alphago do it? And does LZ do it too? i can't answer the second question (my guess is yes), but i can have a stab at the first:

DCNN+feedback is all about probability, even if random rollouts are not involved, so moves that give opp the most chances of stuffing up become valued.

There are holes in the large shimari all over the place, providing dozens of opportunities for shooting yourself in the foot, and LZ can pretty well read them all out to 20 deep, so no wonder she likes it.

But does that mean it's a good idea for anyone who can't read 2 gigaploys in 3 microseconds?

Your grandfather didn't think so, and it wouldn't surprise me if even Iyama Yuta eventually comes around to agreeing with Shusaku.

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