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 Post subject: Guess the next move
Post #1 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:21 pm 
Gosei

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Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k Fox 1d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
as chosen by Leela Zero, latest network (223), 100k visits.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #2 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:30 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8716
Liked others: 1491
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
my instinct is c12, but i have no idea, really. tough situation.

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This post by Kirby was liked by: dfan
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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #3 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:13 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1411
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 199
Was liked: 625
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Knotwilg was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, dfan
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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #4 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:48 am 
Honinbo

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Liked others: 2745
Was liked: 3070
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Everything with love.

Quote of the day:
Quote:
Well, using Latin, per se, is not something that I tend to do.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: dfan
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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #5 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:32 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 445
Liked others: 1
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Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
What I would have played :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And after looking with LZ, while it's not the answer, it's not that bad.


This post by Tryss was liked by: dfan
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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #6 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:37 pm 
Gosei

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GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others. It does look very severe once you see it but you have to be pretty confident you can handle all your groups afterwards. Knotwilg, was that the move you would play in a real game or did you go hunting for moves you thought an AI might play?

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #7 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:17 pm 
Honinbo

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Bravo, Knotwilg! :bow: :bow: :bow:


dfan, what was the game up to this point? Thanks. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Everything with love.

Quote of the day:
Quote:
Well, using Latin, per se, is not something that I tend to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #8 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:45 pm 
Gosei

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Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k Fox 1d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Bill Spight wrote:
dfan, what was the game up to this point? Thanks. :)

It's not a real game; I hope no one was misled! I was watching a ~1k game on KGS and was curious about what might happen if White pushed through and cut (at D15/E16), so I was exploring some of the ensuing variations with Leela Zero, and its choice here struck me. I'm not sure anymore what moves got us to this point or where we deviated from the actual game.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #9 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:29 pm 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
dfan wrote:
Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others. It does look very severe once you see it but you have to be pretty confident you can handle all your groups afterwards. Knotwilg, was that the move you would play in a real game or did you go hunting for moves you thought an AI might play?


I had the same feeling before reading this message. Knotwilg's move seemed very sharp to me - just a feeling (whether or not it works), but it was totally off my radar.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #10 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:16 pm 
Honinbo

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dfan wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
dfan, what was the game up to this point? Thanks. :)

It's not a real game; I hope no one was misled! I was watching a ~1k game on KGS and was curious about what might happen if White pushed through and cut (at D15/E16), so I was exploring some of the ensuing variations with Leela Zero, and its choice here struck me. I'm not sure anymore what moves got us to this point or where we deviated from the actual game.


No, I wasn't misled, just curious. Curiosity filled the hat, you know. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Everything with love.

Quote of the day:
Quote:
Well, using Latin, per se, is not something that I tend to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #11 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:23 pm 
Judan

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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
dfan wrote:
Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others.

It was high up my policy network (when primed to look for interesting move) but I was too lazy to read if it works after white f16 so didn't comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #12 Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:33 pm 
Honinbo

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Kirby wrote:
dfan wrote:
Knotwilg got it! Nicely done. I was very surprised by it so I was wondering if it seemed intuitive to others. It does look very severe once you see it but you have to be pretty confident you can handle all your groups afterwards. Knotwilg, was that the move you would play in a real game or did you go hunting for moves you thought an AI might play?


I had the same feeling before reading this message. Knotwilg's move seemed very sharp to me - just a feeling (whether or not it works), but it was totally off my radar.


Yes, a wonderful play! :D Totally off my radar, as well.

This evening I have been playing around with this position with Deep Leela. It was totally off DL's radar, too. It liked it once I put it in, but not before. DL finally saw it, but it was a couple of moves deep in a different variation, starting with my move. All of our guesses were within DL's margin of error, I think.

White has really bad shape, which I guess is why DL gives Black around a 60% winrate. DL wants to give up the corner, or at least leave open the possibility, or leave a ko behind. That was my inclination, too, but I didn't see how to do it. My move aimed at making White more over concentrated.

After I played around with DL a bit, it settled on an interesting play. Here it is.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Keima
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black can contain White on the top left side with sente, and then switch to the top side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c More bad shape for White
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O 2 . 3 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


DL reckons that :w2: is the best response to Knotwilg's play. Then :b3: is a quite good follow-up. DL also likes :b3: at "a". :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Everything with love.

Quote of the day:
Quote:
Well, using Latin, per se, is not something that I tend to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #13 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:30 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 445
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 127
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
LZ (#221) plan :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 9 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 O 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O 2 . 3 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Tryss was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Guess the next move
Post #14 Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:17 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1411
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 199
Was liked: 625
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
My recipe for success:
- 1/2 luck
- 1/6 what is a solution spectacular enough to write a post about?
- 1/6 bots like angle plays, don't they?
- 1/6 reading (but not the empty triangle response, I apologize to my fans)

This is what I read (apart from responses that allow atari & cut off the edge stone)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X 2 O 9 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . 4 3 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Knotwilg was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, dfan
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