It is currently Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:11 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #21 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:37 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Whole board tsumego.

Above I mentioned that traditional tsumego sometimes spilled out onto the whole board. OC, in such cases the solution to the problem may not have been the best play on the board. ;)

Here is a nice example, from Life and Death Research by Suzuki Tamejiro, published in 1920. Many people will be familiar with the modern version of the problem, which is more enclosed.


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #22 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:01 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1311
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Mike Novack wrote:
Not exactly. In "varvar" if white plays 3 tenuki, black plays 4 at "R3" (the letters are shifted) and then that group is unconditionally alive. Meaning that there is no hurry to capture the corner because the "O6" dragon has LOTS of liberties.

So play continues elsewhere until just dame left or the dragon's liberties have been reduced to the danger point. So white does not get all those tenukis you described, just the tenuki of 3 and sente. By the time black has to use moves to capture the corner, what you have as 9, 11, and 13 become valueless dame plays (and 5 was just white having sente after black 4)

One of the problems with the problem is that you are right, IF AND ONLY IF Black plays a perfect game.

However, if Black ever loses a move in the main semeai between his large group in the upper right and White's group at the left edge, he will lose the game by a large margin.

Please note that in this very special case of the main semeai getting two eyes with the move at "R3" also loses a move unnecessarily.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Joachim Meinhardt's oki at "R3" (aka O3) -- that destroyed the classical solution to the problem -- has a similar characteristic.

This move is of NO use during several potential semeai between Black's large group in the upper right and White's group at the LOWER edge (then with only one eye) in the first half of the game. It also loses a move during these subvariations, and so should not be played.

But with the correct solution sequence, the situation towards the end of the main semeai will change, and this oki becomes the game winner for White.
Please also note that none of the seemingly "dame" plays is "valueless" then. ;-)

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #23 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:19 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1311
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
This implies that one -- human being and machine alike -- cannot really learn from even the PROBLEM's move sequences INSIDE the hanezeki, unless the liberty relationship between the two OUTSIDE groups that are caught in a main semeai is also taken into account.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: AI & Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #24 Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:24 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1311
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Crosscut? Which Crosscut?

Both programs do not realize Black's crosscut in the upper left.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B 221 = B 79
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O . O X X X O . . X . X O . O . |
$$ | . O O O . ? O O X X O O . O X . . X . |
$$ | O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X O O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O X . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X Z O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

LeelaZero follows her fatal inclination to moves inside the hanezeki, assuming win rate > 65 % for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B 221 = B 79
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O O . X O X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . X O . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . O . X . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O O . O X X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X . O Z O X X X O . . X . X O . O . |
$$ | . O O O . ? O O X X O O . O X . . X . |
$$ | O . . X . . . O O X O . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X X O . X X X X O O O |
$$ | X O O , . X . O X O O X X O O O O X . |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O O . X X X |
$$ | X . . O X . . O X O . X O O X X X O O |
$$ | X X . . X . . O X O . X O O O X X X O |
$$ | . O O X O X . O X O . X X O O O X O O |
$$ | . . X . . X . O X O X . O X X X O O O |
$$ | O X X , X . . O X O O O O X O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X X X X X . O X X O X |
$$ | O . X . . . X O O O O O O X O X . O X |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

KataGo, however, gives atari from the wrong side, assuming a win rate about 15 % for Black.
Probably, KataGo judges Black's large upper right group to be dead, so the best policy might be capturing White's left side.

+ + + + +

It is obvious that neither program realizes the main semeai between Black's upper right, and White's left, groups.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group