It is currently Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:55 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: KataGo @ Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #101 Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 11:30 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1308
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
The walk with HONTE was a little shorter than usual because we got into the 8% chance of rain :razz:
So I enjoy a cigar in parallel on the loggia ...

John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Inoue Dôsetsu Inseki knew the thought processes of his professional colleagues down to the very last ramification.
However, I also believe in something else, which is similar to what you say there, but I would put it rather differently.

I start from the premise that Dosetsu was not specially interested in making problems that were hard or interesting for their own sake. He was not an entertainer but an educator. At least I think that's a fair inference from the very little of his work that survives, and it also explains Dosaku's faith in him to nurture Dochi.

I further infer (with a lot of confidence in this case) that he created problems to teach thought processes about tactics. That's really what the title of the book is about, after all.
Dear John, I think we both mean the same thing about Dôsetsu, in principle.

If his Yôshin Teiki had not only survived the centuries in small parts, but had been preserved in its entirety, our speculations today would be based on a much more reliable foundation.
From the fragments that have survived, he seems to have been a fan of a systematic elaboration of a theme, which in my estimation is not typical of an East Asian mindset (but I have too little experience in this regard, you are the expert).

He must have been aware that this kind of systematic approach would not really help him with his social ambitions. It was probably even a hindrance (since it was "unusual" in Japan).
In relation to the game of Go itself, however, he perfected this mindset because he knew it was the right one.

Yes indeed, Dôsetsu must have been a fantastic educator, because he very obviously understood a lot about pedagogy. And in addition he knew all the strengths, weaknesses and blind spots of both the other professionals and his students.
This is what I meant above. Not the "though processes" themselves (taken literally), but their results.

In my opinion, his "never-be-sure-there-would-be-a-solution" problem XVII also fits well into the overall picture. For pedagogical reasons, one would demonstrate something like this on a relatively simple problem (and not on an extremely complex one), which is what he did with his "Black moves and dies" (which I do not think was included in his collection of problems by him in error or maliciously by others).

Quote:
When it came to CXX, my feeling is that he probably created a problem for study by his pupils which deliberately had something hard/instructive/teasing or even unfathomable at various junctures.
Yes, I totally agree with you.

Quote:
At each of those junctures, I therefore suspect that even he did not know what the local outcome was - all he knew and cared about, I suggest, is that it was instructive.
Due to my many years of intensive involvement with the problem, I unfortunately have to partially disagree with you here.

He knew that CXX was very instructive and not only knew the local results, but was also very aware of the global connections and interdependencies. There is no other explanation for the numerous variations that are decided by a single point or a single move only.
It may well be that he did not play through ALL (especially "narrow") variations that we know today down to the last detail. But then he must have known the laws / principles of all the individual forms and their global interplay, which he took with him to the grave. For all this cannot have been put together "purely by chance".

Quote:
Quote:
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING "simple" about this problem.
Even things that seem to be crystal clear are NOT. And I dare to doubt that we have identified ALL internal connections and dependencies so far.
Thomas: I agree. And I feel sure you are the best person in the whole world to answer this question: How much of this problem did Dosetsu himself really understand?
100,00%.

Quote:
I happen to believe that, as regards specifics, Dosetsu probably understood very little, and it would not surprise me in the least if even you understood more.
This is too much of an honour, John.
It seems rather that, especially after drawing diagrams, a lot of (detailed) knowledge is erased from current memory or shifted to deeper regions. And I also need the intensive help of Karl's KataGo 40b-version to find out where my KataGo 60b-version in training goes wrong.

But in fact I have documented much more about the solution than Dôsetsu has. :D

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: KataGo @ Igo Hatsuyoron 120
Post #102 Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 5:34 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1308
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 153
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Small addition:

In the old copy of Igo Hatsuyôron discovered by Araki Naomi in 1982, said to contain only the problems of the original version, there were TWO problems that were "unknown" until then, CXX and LXI.

If we take the number of pages of the commentary in Cheng Xiaoliu's 2010 book on Igo Hatsuyôron as a yardstick, LXI is one of the few extremely complex problems in the collection. The front-runner is, of course, CXX.

This leads me to believe that later generations after Dôsetsu basically expected the problems to have a solution, but found none for either LXI or CXX. And so these TWO problems were simply suppressed during further copying. Instead, problems from other historical problem collections were included.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 102 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group