AFAIK the word "flying dagger" is a direct translation of a Chinese word, and more specifically, they call the joseki "Mi Yuting's flying dagger" or something. I do not know if there is any other flying dagger joseki though. And that variation is considered not a trick play but a joseki, a very complex one which most of the modern engines (including even Golaxy) fail to understand thoroughly.

Flying dagger: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16016

Huh, didn't know.

(From this thread)

Are there any near-, mid- or long-term plans for KataGo to support saving/loading calculation memory?

No, not right now. (This might be a lot of work, I think other things take priority).

Version 1.3.3 is out!

https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo/releases

This is the first release of some new bigger nets: b30c320, b40c256. These should be noticeably stronger at equal playouts but noticeably weaker at equal time. At least, for low 1000s of playouts - I haven't tested them at very long time controls to see whether they do the thing where the big net scales better than the small net for much longer time controls.

And the 20 block net is still improving too, as we are continuing to train it even after switching to the larger nets for self-play.

Also, this release has various configuration, GTP and other improvements. For example, you can now query KataGo for raw neural net evaluations in GTP, have interactively generate a config for you and do the necessary tuning, or run it on KGS out-of-the-box now.

Expected behavior, but uninformative as to what the inflection points might be. I realize that you perhaps don't know the information yet in an exact sense, but how about in at least a ball park of what you mean by "short" and "long" time. When you say "short" do you mean a second, ten seconds, a minute?

I don't think I did say "short"? Rather I said "low 1000s of playouts". For example say the 20 block gets a time control that lets it get about 4000 playouts per move while the 40 block is able to get a bit more than 2000 playouts per move. Generally slightly more since 2x the size of net is a bit less than a 2x slowdown depending on your GPUs and your CPUs.

At roughly those settings, with a test of a few hundred games I'm seeing about a 60-110 Elo gap between the two. For example, for one of the older 40 block versions (a bit older than the one released publicly, which I haven't directly tested) vs one the 20 block versions from last release (s1.91G), test result was 379.5 vs 230.5 vs in favor of the 20 block. Counting draws as half, randomizing between area and territory rules and group tax and button Go and other options automatically choosing whatever komi the nets believe are most fair, usually 6.5 or 7 depending on the rules.

You'd need to work for yourself on your hardware how much time that many playouts takes.

And how much longer "long" would need to be, or if in fact the 30 or 40 block nets have been trained enough to even have better scaling yet? Nobody has tested yet.

"OpenCL version will now detect CPU-based OpenCL devices, and might run on some pure CPU machines now with no GPU." (https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo/releases)

can I use cpu if there is a gpu? and how to find out if the cpu supports?

If you run anything with it (GTP, or benchmark), it should list all the devices it finds in the log. Or in the case of the new genconfig command, it will explicitly tell you the devices in the interactive prompt. Then you can select which device you want, either editing an existing gtp.cfg to use that device id, or using genconfig to make an entirely new config.

You may or may not have a CPU OpenCL implementation. The cloud machines I'm testing on don't have one, but my laptop does. Keep in mind that CPU will be a lot slower.

If there is significant strength difference (seen at equal visits), I'd be very surprised if the scaling effect wouldn't appear in high visit games (exponential policy benefit IMO).

Any chance for a 15b bot trained on 30b games in the future? Maybe it would eventually get stronger than Elf2 at playout parity? Thanks for great bots!
Katago 1.3.3 s243 20b 1 playout vs gtp4zen zen6 7d : 4-0 . Wow
Katago 1.3.3 s243 20b 350 playout 1 thread vs lz 125 1 thread 4000 playout [9d amateur - beat a pro] : 3-1 two bots were dead even
leela white
kata white

lastly, 20b s243 vs 20b s191 both 16 po 1 thread engine 1.3.3: 4-2
They are pretty even on my machine. With continued extended training, it will be interesting to watch progress!

_________________
set katago to play at your level https://docdro.id/sHZU1ti or experiment with gtp4zen ( https://rb.gy/kx2ilb )

What makes you think that KataGo with the current best 15 block net is not stronger than Elf v2 at playout parity? In my opinion it already is.

My tests showed them about even. I forgot how i tested, might not be right. cgos has 15b 100 playout even with kata 1.3.2 s191 50 playout, to give strength estimate. Leela zero did 15b extended trainingd with 40b net, it was effective for them. 15b extended training is one of their strongest nets. It takes time, though, the 30b bot has to get very strong first for the 15b to make any progress

_________________
set katago to play at your level https://docdro.id/sHZU1ti or experiment with gtp4zen ( https://rb.gy/kx2ilb )

Katago 1.3.3 , Networks :
20b : b20d4686.txt.gz
30b : b30d5259.bin.gz
40b : b40d5243.bin.gz

9x9 : 100 game tests at visits parity (1600 visits). Gogui-twogtp 1.5.1 , 1xGTX1080

Katago 1.3.3 20b v. Katago 1.3.3 30b
no error, 2 duplicate games,
Katago 1.3.3 30b wins 85-13 (86.7 %)

Katago 1.3.3 20b v. Katago 1.3.3 40b
no error, 14 duplicate games,
Katago 1.3.3 40b wins 69-17 (80.2 %)

For 9x9, at visits parity 30b and 40b seem much stronger than 20b


9x9 : 100 game tests at time parity. Gogui-twogtp 1.5.1 , 2xGTX 1080Ti (2s/move, corresponding to ~ 8000 visits for 20b, and to ~3000-3500 visits for 30b or 40b )

Katago 1.3.3 20b v. Katago 1.3.3 30b
no error, 3 duplicate games,
Katago 1.3.3 20b wins 55-42 (56.7 %)

Katago 1.3.3 20b v. Katago 1.3.3 40b
no error, 2 duplicate games,
Katago 1.3.3 20b wins 57-41 (58.1 %)

30b and 40b seem not too far from 20b at time parity.

Stats :

Vargo why didn't you use a stronger network g170e 20 block s2.43G?

Can anyone explain the meaning of the visits parity tests? I understand this for training networks, but for the user, what's the point?

Maybe I'll try tomorrow with 20b s2.43G.

interesting to see 19x19! thanks for your tests!

visits, especially with one thread, are reproducible on different hardware. Very good if you dont want the bot playing at its strongest. Like getting gtp4zen to play at 3 kyu instead of 3 dan. Thats different time per move on different hardware, but visits parameter is the same and reproducible on any hardware. I know exactly how many playouts katago needs to play at a pro level, but the time is different on dif hardware. similarly, i know how to get it to play at 4 dan ogs (1 playout). you can play against a set strength level, especially with nonzero bots trained on sgfs

_________________
set katago to play at your level https://docdro.id/sHZU1ti or experiment with gtp4zen ( https://rb.gy/kx2ilb )