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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #41 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:35 am 
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I will definitely get at least one 3080 (when supply allows prices to approach MSRPs). As currently I do not have a desktop PC (except for a tiny barebone), I also need to buy all components for it. My intermediate conclusion is only that a PC with 2x 3080 appears to be unrealistic (or else too loud) for me.

Initially, I calculated +€700 for the second card and that would have been feasible. However, having to spend +€1300 results in a total of ca. €3100, which is a bit more change than I am willing to spend:) Especially so since, according to my current understanding, one 3080 can already provide superhuman strength (except for certain ladders etc.), if necessary with some extra thinking time. Combined with new other components (reasonable CPU + RAM), this is all the more possible.

Good enough is good enough and Threadripper, 4x 3080 water cooled is just a dream (for us mere mortals). OC, I will study any reports on deep learning speed of 3080.

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #42 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:44 am 
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I'll take one RTX 3080, but I think I'll underclock it to drastically reduce power consumption. And if it works well to reduce heat&power&noise, without huge impact on performance, I may take a 2nd one... We'll see

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #43 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:55 am 
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Friday9i wrote:
I'll take one RTX 3080, but I think I'll underclock it to drastically reduce power consumption. And if it works well to reduce heat&power&noise, without huge impact on performance, I may take a 2nd one... We'll see


Do you mean the Founders Edition?.

It might be easier to simply regulate the fans of Asus TUF or MSI GX3, if some tool allows this. The FE runs at 76C so does not seem to allow much fan regulation.

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #44 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:24 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Friday9i wrote:
I'll take one RTX 3080, but I think I'll underclock it to drastically reduce power consumption. And if it works well to reduce heat&power&noise, without huge impact on performance, I may take a 2nd one... We'll see


Do you mean the Founders Edition?.

It might be easier to simply regulate the fans of Asus TUF or MSI GX3, if some tool allows this. The FE runs at 76C so does not seem to allow much fan regulation.

I have a Gigabyte 2080 and am happy with it, their Aorus Engine tool allows to easily underclock / overclock the cards, so I'm limiting the power used: it allows me to run it quite cool, with reasonable noise and only 10% to 20% performance reduction. That's the price to pay to keep the computer in the living room without having too many family complaints :-).

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #45 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:38 am 
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Gigabyte 2080 is a 2.5 slots card, it seems. Gigabyte 3080 occupies 2.7 slots. Which mainboard do you plan to use for 2 cards?

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #46 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:04 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Gigabyte 2080 is a 2.5 slots card, it seems. Gigabyte 3080 occupies 2.7 slots. Which mainboard do you plan to use for 2 cards?

I already have two cards, RTX2080 and RTX2070 Super, on an Asus Prime X570, but they are next to each other, which is quite bad to keep them cool. I'll install a Riser to move one of the cards further away and keep it cool more easily. And I'll resell one of the cards (the 2080 probably)

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #47 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:15 pm 
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What case do you have so that you can use a riser cable and install and fixate the second card with enough airflow?

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #48 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:46 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
What case do you have so that you can use a riser cable and install and fixate the second card with enough airflow?

A thermaltake F31 (which is quite large): the guy who set up the computer said it is possible to install a riser, so it must be possible. But to be honest, I don't really know how & where: I'll take the case back to the shop and ask them to install it when I buy the RTX3080 :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #49 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:22 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
according to my current understanding, one 3080 can already provide superhuman strength (except for certain ladders etc.), if necessary with some extra thinking time. Combined with new other components (reasonable CPU + RAM), this is all the more possible.

I agree 100%. This will be a superhuman rig.

It would be good for anyone, maybe especially an author looking to refine his theories.

I look forward to hearing how it runs for you!

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Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #50 Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:24 pm 
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Let me discuss B550 and X570 mainboards (mostly ATX) suitable for Ryzen 3000 CPUs. On October 8, new CPUs and maybe chipsets will be announced. Their most important, but often well hidden, aspect is the temperatures of the Voltage Regulator Modules under load. From Hardware Unboxed and similar sources, I have gathered relative qualities (for reference, I also state some prices):

++ Gigabyte B550 Aorus Master €270

+ Gigabyte X570 Aorus Master (rev 1.2) €330
+ Gigabyte X570 Aorus Xtreme (rev. 1.1) €700
+ MSI MEG X570 Godlike
+ MSI B550M Gaming Plus
+ MSI B550M Mortar

+o MSI MEG X570 UNIFY €268
+o Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Hero

o MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk €144
o MSI MPG B550 Gaming Edge WiFi €160
o MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk WiFi €188
o MSI MEG X570 ACE €311
o Gigabyte B550 Aorus Pro V2 €165
o Gigabyte B550 Aorus Pro AC €180
o Gigabyte B550 AORUS PRO AX
o Gigabyte B550 Vision D €265
o Asus ROG Strix B550-E Gaming
o Asus ROG Strix B550-F Gaming
o Asrock X570 Phantom Gaming X
o Asus Prime X570-P
o Asus TUF Gaming B550M-A Plus

o? Asus B550 F Gaming

o- MSI MPG B550 Gaming Carbon WiFi €193
o- Gigabyte X570 Aorus Pro WiFi (rev 1.2)
o- Asrock B550 Steel Legend €173
o- Asus TUF Gaming X570-Plus
o- MSI B550M Mortar

- MSI MPG B550 Gaming Plus €131
- Asrock B550M Steel Legend €140
- Asrock X570 Taichi €280
- MSI B550M Bazooka

-- MSI B550-A PRO €120
-- MSI X570-A Pro €145
-- MSI MPG X570 Gaming Edge WIFI €172
-- MSI MPG X570 Gaming Pro Carbon WiFi €230
-- Asrock B550M Pro4 €105
-- Asrock B550 Pro4 €130
-- Asrock X570 Steel Legend €190
-- Asrock X570 Steel Legend Wifi AX €140
-- Asrock X570 Pro4
-- Gigabyte X550 Gaming X
-- Gigabyte X570 Gaming X
-- Asus Prime B550M-A
-- Gigabyte B550M DS3H
-- Gigabyte B550M Aorus Pro
-- MSI B550M Pro-VDH Wifi
-- Gigabyte B550M Aorus Elite

Some of the "--" boards reach 115 C, throttle or fail with 3900X or 3950X, especially when over-clocked. These boards might still work with 3700X but I suggest to avoid the "-" and "--" boards entirely. "o-" boards are also not particularly suitable for an RTX 3080.

***

Another somewhat cryptic aspect of mainboards is their audio quality.

For exceptional audio devices, mainboard audio chips are insufficient. Additional soundcards, amplifyers or the like are required.

According to igorslab, Realtek ALC1220 might be good enough for 250 Ohm headphones, ALC1200 for ~30 Ohm headphones up to the €50~60 range. It can be better to connect a headphone to the front audio port than the rear audio port.

***

Mainboards have many similar features. Apart from price, design, VRM and audio, they differ in particular WRT to the following aspects:

- number of PCIe slots running at 4.0 x8 in dual mode
- number of M.2 slots (and their speeds)
- passively cooled (B550) or actively cooled (X570, with one exception) chipset
- HDMI or DisplayPort (and their versions) at the mainboard used with an APU
- LAN 2.5 Gb/s (rarely faster) or 1.0 Gb/s (sometimes two ports)
- WLAN 2230 module (best WLAN AX and Bluetooth 5.1), empty M.2 2230 slot or neither
- USB 3.2 (should also include Gen 2) or not; only for rear or also for front
- numbers of USB ports of different types (one board has Thunderbolt 3 but for what purpose when we want to install a much faster GPU?)
- number of headers to connect chassis fans (too many Asus boards have only 3 and daisy chaining can be unstable)
- UEFI / software control of PWM (4-pin) or (less precise) DC (3-pin) fans
- RGB
- extra 8- or 4-pin PSU 12V connector
- different space for the PCIe cards
- different space for the CPU air cooler
- UEFI bugs

***

Having studied all available mainboards, I must say that each board lacks at least one desirable feature. Partly, this has to be attributed to the chipset. Partly, the manufacturers have chosen the wrong mix.

Boards in the €100 range have bad VRMs. MSI MAG B550 Tomahawk is in the €150 range but lacks WLAN entirely (you'd need an USB stick for that). Therefore, reasonable mainboards cost at least €160. Mainboards with two PCIe slots running at 4.0 x8 in dual mode cost at least €230 but typically €270~330, and not even all of them have good VRMs.

Happy mainboard hunting!

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #51 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:25 am 
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Which of the MB's is compatible with the 5900X?

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #52 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:54 am 
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Presumably those for which a manufacturer says in a mainboard's specifications for CPUs: "and for future / next generation CPUs"

However, it is unclear whether an UEFI update will be nevessary and if that can be done when building a new PC with a 5000 CPU. Better we ask each manufacturer for each board in question we are interested in!

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #53 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:28 pm 
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Gomoto wrote:
Which of the MB's is compatible with the 5900X?


It's tough to say for something two generations away. When the third-generation Ryzens were released there were a lot of hassles even getting them to work on motherboards meant for second-generation CPUs. Eventually it working, but it took a while. On the other hand, how likely would you be to upgrade the CPU? It's not something I've ever found the need to do.

There have been reports of stability issues with the RTX 3080 offerings from several vendors. Buyer beware until this one is settled.

All of this talk of high-end computer systems for go study has me wondering--how much computing power does it take to saturate the human brain? Even my wimpy little graphics card can do analyses faster than I can absorb. Are modern high-end cards overkill?

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #54 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:19 pm 
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According to rumours, Zen3 is called 5000 so is the next generation.

RTX 3080 instability: Six big capacitors on the back of the GPU are bad especially in over-clocking. 10 small ones per big one are good. Asus has all small. IIRC, Zotac and Gigabyte have all big. Founders Edition, MSI and some others have two or one big replaced by small ones, which seems to be (barely) ok.

Such fast GPUs are useful to essential for top level go, 4K or 8K 3D-gaming, scientific workstations etc. With less needs, slower GPUs might do.

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #55 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:09 am 
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Well, Ryzen 5000 have been unveiled a few days ago and it seems they are superior to Intel CPUs in every regard, even in single-core performance, the aspect where Intel has been dominating so far.
Just chiming in to say in case you go for a Ryzen, consider the RAM frequency as well! From what I know the Ryzen architecture has this specialty that their performance is kind of linked to RAM frequency unlike for basically any other CPU architeture, in the way that apparently RAM clocked at 3600MHz is the sweet spot for price/performance and should be considered as minimum frequency.

Another thing, regarding 64GB vs 32GB - depending on Mainboard (and possibly CPU? Not sure) architecture, a 64GB system may have slightly worse performance than a 32GB one. However, I don't have numbers so I cannot judge whether it is maybe just completely negligible.

Other than that, yes, the RTX3080 seems like the best choice for all of these three things: Gaming, AI, Crypto-Mining (according to the news at least, unfortunately - which was why there were huge preorders and firstday-mass-buys from chinese mining farm operators, leading or at least adding to the shortage of cards).

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #56 Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:41 am 
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I'm planning on buying a better card solely for Katago. My budget is around 300-400, so a 5600XT or a RTX 2070 is what I'm looking at right now... maybe a 3060 or 3070 if they come out soon.

Can anyone (@lightvector, @RobertJasiek) tell me if KataGo will be running better on a GPU with tensor cores than on one without? I presume it will, but I am not sure whether the tensor cores are only helpful at training time? And if they are helpful at runtime, is there a order-of-magnitude estimate how much better such a card will be (compared to a similar card without TC)? There is a very in-depth blog about GPUs for deep learning that says something like twice as fast...?

https://timdettmers.com/2020/09/07/whic ... -learning/

My question basically asks if a midrange NVIDIA card will still be a lot better for Katago than a similarily priced AMD card (that have no TC as far as I know?). The reason I'm even thinking about that is that NVidia cards used to have (and I think they still do) a lag problem in computation mode ... when the computation of the go bot runs, the GUI will become very unresponsive, even on a fast computer (correct me if that is no longer an issue). I asked the programmer of Leela (gcp) about that and he said that he knows about it, and that it has something to do with "schedulers" of which Nvidia cards have only one and AMD cards have more so they don't lag...

And is there a difference in regard to the usefulness of tensor cores between the OpenCL and the CUDA versions?

And is it possible to solve the lag issue by simply using two cards? One AMD for all display purposes, and an NVIDIA only for the computing part? Has anyone done that (on Linux)?

Any hints appreciated!!

Edit: Sorry if that is slightly OT, but I couldn't find a better place to ask this question, since lightvector is probably the one person who knows most about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #57 Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:14 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
Which of the MB's is compatible with the 5900X?


AMD said that all 500 mainboards will be able to run the new Ryzen 5000 series. But you probably will need to update the BIOS (and on most boards you'll need a CPU for that, but some (I think MSI) will be updateable without a CPU). Even most (depending on the manufacturer) 400 boards will get an update for 5000 cpus. Only the 300 boards will not get updates it seems.

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #58 Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:14 am 
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AFAIK, tensor cores are essential also at runtime to get fast speed and RTX 3000 is better than RTX 2000 at that.

I know nothing about the lag issue.

As to Ryzen, I consider 3700X, 3900X, some XT, 5800X, 5900X or await a still unannounced 5700X. XT may require a suitable mainboard or UEFI update presuming an earlier CPU. Ryzen 5000, too, a new mainboard launched later or a rare expensive mainboard with UEFI update without CPU. Compared to current Ryzen 3000 prices, Ryzen 5000 are somewhat expensive. I do not know how much acceleration we get from the latter. The AMD presentation gave 1080p figures +19%~+28% but these are the least meaningful for us. 4K figures are nearly identical from 3600X to 5950X in 3D gaming. Mevertheless, more cores and higher IPC should mean something for us, but how much? +5%? +20%? In go AI, the (if only one) GPU is the bottleneck.

3950X and 5950X are too expensive for my taste.

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #59 Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:30 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
AFAIK, tensor cores are essential also at runtime to get fast speed and RTX 3000 is better than RTX 2000 at that.

I know nothing about the lag issue.

As to Ryzen, I consider 3700X, 3900X, some XT, 5800X, 5900X or await a still unannounced 5700X. XT may require a suitable mainboard or UEFI update presuming an earlier CPU. Ryzen 5000, too, a new mainboard launched later or a rare expensive mainboard with UEFI update without CPU. Compared to current Ryzen 3000 prices, Ryzen 5000 are somewhat expensive. I do not know how much acceleration we get from the latter. The AMD presentation gave 1080p figures +19%~+28% but these are the least meaningful for us. 4K figures are nearly identical from 3600X to 5950X in 3D gaming. Mevertheless, more cores and higher IPC should mean something for us, but how much? +5%? +20%? In go AI, the (if only one) GPU is the bottleneck.

3950X and 5950X are too expensive for my taste.


Thanks for the answer. I am fairly certain tensor cores are essential, just wanted to confirm that with an expert. The lag issue was really a big turn-off for me, I even filed a bug report for Leela, but it turned out the issue was known and not a bug. Maybe the newer generations do not suffer from that anymore... would be great, cause that is the only reason for me to use AMD cards at the moment.

From what I understood in the above linked blog from Tim Dettmer who is apparently quite an expert in the field, the CPU won't make much of a difference. All the tough computing is done on the GPU and the CPU is basically just dealing out the tasks and data (also a question to @lightvector if that is really the case). So I wouldn't invest too much into that, any newer 6-8 core will do fine as far as I understand. During analysis even my old 4-core i7 is running at 20% while GPU is under full load.

Guess I just wait a little longer, see how the prices go after AMDs GPU announcement in November, and maybe get some nice christmas deal for a 20XX or even a 30XX.

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 Post subject: Re: Nvidia RTX 30xx
Post #60 Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:27 am 
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I am not an expert on that but have just read everything I could find during the last two months.

As I wrote, 6 cores is the minimum, 8 cores significantly better for deep learning, above 8 more cores help more but subproportionally.

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