It is currently Sun May 19, 2024 3:52 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1 post ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Wild play
Post #1 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:53 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 913
Liked others: 22
Was liked: 170
Rank: panda 5 dan
IGS: kvasir
Computer programs sometimes explore some wild variations. Maybe it is fun to collect some of these and try to understand them?

I guess I don't follow actual computer play but instead variations suggested during analysis.

Here is one...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . .|
$$ | . O O O X X X O O . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ | O . O X X . X X X O X X . . . O X . .|
$$ | . O X . X . X O O X X . . . . O O . .|
$$ | . . O . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . X O X . X . . O . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . X O . . . X X . . . O . .|
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . O X . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . X X O , O X . . . , X . .|
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X X X X X O X O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O O O c . . X X . . . . . . O a .|
$$ | . . O X . O d . . . . . X . . . . b .|
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O . . X O . O O X .|
$$ | . . X . . O O X X X X . X O . . . . .|
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


It is a game between pros and white is ahead and it is time for black to do something. In the game black played "a" and never had a chance. I was watching the game and thought maybe black should play "b" and try to take advantage of the fact that black can attack in the center if he needs stones on the outside. KataGo actually agrees but wants to play some forcing moves first at "c" or "d". Now, I change the rules to "no komi" to make an even situation and KataGo actually wants to play any of "a" to "d".

Another idea is to attack first in the center and that is where we get to the wild variation. It is only 0.5 a point or so less than the best moves and it is not that unexpected until after the first diagram. White's first move could be different in practice but throwing away the tail is cool.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b7: at marked stone
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . .|
$$ | . O O O X X X O O . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ | O . O X X . X X X O X X . . . O X . .|
$$ | . O X . X . X O O X X . . . . O O . .|
$$ | . . O . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . X O X . X . 5 O 6 9 . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . X @ 3 1 4 X X . . . O . .|
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O . O X . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . X X O , O X 8 . . , X . .|
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . 2 . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X X X X X O X O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O O O . . . X X . . . . . . O . .|
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . . . X . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O . . X O . O O X .|
$$ | . . X . . O O X X X X . X O . . . . .|
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Now the next move is wild :tmbup:

I think it is undoubtedly correct and surprisingly KataGo sees this from afar at even only a few playouts, even though it is not the only move in practice. Probably some L19ers have the imagination to find this move :D

Hint 1
If this is an AI-like move then I'm worried -- it's really just bribery.


Hint 2
White plays a dead stone that hastens black's suji/plan to capture all of the center.


The variation
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm10 :w20: at the marked stone
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . .|
$$ | . O O O X X X O O . . . . . O . . . .|
$$ | O . O X X . X X X O X X . . . O X . .|
$$ | . O X . X . X O O X X . . . . O O . .|
$$ | . . O . . X O O . O 1 . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . X O X . X . X O O X . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X . . . X X X X O X X . . . O . .|
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O 2 O X . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . X X O , O 4 O . . , X . .|
$$ | . . . . . O X O O 8 . O . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . X X X X X O X O . 0 . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . O O O . . . X X . . . . . . O a .|
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . 9 . X . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O . . X O . O O X .|
$$ | . . X . . O O X X X X @ X O . . . . .|
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . 5 3 7 6 . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Btw black has aji of "a" which evens the territory situation in the no-komi case.

The variation feels wild to me but not inexplicable. Probably the reason why KataGo wants to play like this with :w10: and onward is that it quickly fixes the shape in the center and on the whole board while leaving white ahead. This is somewhat appealing in the komi case, white is ahead and there isn't much left to contest. However, if the estimate of white being ahead (only by 0.5 in the no komi case) was incorrect then white could in a way be resigning the game by fixing the shapes everywhere.

I don't remember if I checked if KataGo still likes :w10: if the komi is adjusted to favor black. My hypothesis is that it would prefer not to fix the shapes everywhere and instead keep more possibilities open.


This post by kvasir was liked by 2 people: And, dust
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 1 post ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group