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 Post subject: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:17 am 
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So another question pops up whilst I was looking around to enlighten myself on goban-ness, and this came up. :study:

There hasn't really been a log/forum/post on the "versus-ness" of single and multiple pieces goban. There are clear prices different, but there's no real "why". Some post I read says that multiple pieces of wood are MORE prone to warping, and then some said that they are LESS prone to warping. Some say that multiple are better, and some says nooooon. All the post out there currently are someone question on buying shin-kaya one piece or Hyuga-kaya multiple pieces, and everyone rush to say Hyuga kaya because of it's awesomeness and all that. And almost all of Kuroki goban(tabletop) that are hyuga are multiple piece board.

Some stuff I read on multiple pieces are pretty scary, splitting seam and color changes in individual piece of wood and all that. :o

So please, can some woodmaster clear this up once and for all (me, mainly)(But also those who would come after me too I guess) :D :bow:

By the way: What's the average weight of a 6cm board? I need to know to calculate shipping on several board I'm looking at now.


Last edited by TheCatLver on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:00 pm 
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TheCatLver wrote:
So another question pops up whilst I was looking around to enlighten myself on goban-ness, and this came up. :study:

There hasn't really been a log/forum/post on the "versus-ness" of single and multiple pieces goban. There are clear prices different, but there's no real "why". Some post I read says that multiple pieces of wood are MORE prone to warping, and then some said that they are LESS prone to warping. Some say that multiple are better, and some says nooooon. All the post out there currently are someone question on buying shin-kaya one piece or Hyuga-kaya multiple pieces, and everyone rush to say Hyuga kaya because of it's awesomeness and all that. And almost all of Kuroki goban(tabletop) that are hyuga are multiple piece board.

Some stuff I read on multiple pieces are pretty scary, splitting seam and color changes in individual piece of wood and all that. :o

So please, can some woodmaster clear this up once and for all (me, mainly)(But also those who would come after me too I guess) :D :bow:

By the way: What's the average weight of a 6cm board? I need to know to calculate shipping on several board I'm looking at now.


My understanding of this is that a thicker piece of wood is more stable, so as the thickness of the board increases, the benefits of having multiple pieces (less warping) become less relevant, and the potential for seam issues increases. If you have a thin one piece board, you can get it quartersawn, but it's still less stable because it's less thick. Having multiple pieces that change the direction of the grain helps minimize this, but both types will have the potential for warping. That said, I do not have direct experience with this.

Regarding the average weight, different kinds of wood can be substantially more or less dense than others. Which wood are you asking about?

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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:29 pm 
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CatLver, if you change the Subject line of this thread to include “wood” and/or “board” it might better attract the eyes of our woodworkers (there was one here with “pony” in their nickname, IIRC).

Regards, Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:02 pm 
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Warping is always a danger. I know people who bought 15cm thick one piece boards with legs and, a few years later, they have to put something under one of the legs to compensate for wobbling due to warping. All things being equal a thinner board is more likely to warp than a thicker one and multi-piece boards are less likely to warp. This assumes that the boards are properly made from properly dried wood. But there is a problem because boards made in Japan are stabilized relative to Japan's climate, which generally is quite humid. If you buy a Japanese board and move it to an arid climate, e.g. Phoenix, Arizona, USA, it will take some time for the board to adjust to the dry climate and there is a chance warping will occur. I think you have to assume that a small amount of warping is normal, unless you keep the board in a climate-controlled environment. Cracking can also occur due to radical change in climate.

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Post #5 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Regarding the average weight, different kinds of wood can be substantially more or less dense than others. Which wood are you asking about?[/quote]

They're all some spruce related woods.

@gowan- well, I'm in Minnesota. So it flunctuate like crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Single piece boards are better than multi-piece boards for both strength and durability. When buying a single piece there are a few things to consider.

1. Wood - Some woods are better than others. Kaya and Katsura are the two best followed by Hiba and Agathis. Shin-Kaya (Spruce) tends to warp more easily, I'm not sure however whether this is an effect of the wood or because Shin-Kaya pieces are inadequacy dried and rushed to the market.

2. Cut - Masame cut (Strait grain) will give more durability but cost more. All of Mr. Kuroki's table boards tend to be Masame.

Masame comes in four cuts, ranked here in order of quality. 1. Shihomasa, 2. Tenchimasa, 3. Tenmasa, 4. Oimasa

Almost all Shin-Kaya pieces I've seen have been Shihomasa or Tenchimasa.

Itame cut (irregular grain) - The itame cuts are more prone to warping, but fortunately you don't see them as often in table boards.

Itame cuts are ranked in the following order: 1. Kiura (grain on top), 2. Kiomote (Grain on bottom)

Katsura is usually Itame because the trees don't grow large enough to produce Masame.

All said, a properly cared for Go board regardless of the material, can last decades or even generations.


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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:30 pm 
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Erythen wrote:
Single piece boards are better than multi-piece boards for both strength and durability. When buying a single piece there are a few things to consider.

1. Wood - Some woods are better than others. Kaya and Katsura are the two best followed by Hiba and Agathis. Shin-Kaya (Spruce) tends to warp more easily, I'm not sure however whether this is an effect of the wood or because Shin-Kaya pieces are inadequacy dried and rushed to the market.


.


Thanks a lot Erythen, But I'm still a few decades too early to have the kind of money to buy a Hyuga Kaya board :D. However, your info on wood cut is great, it's just that what I'm looking for right now is a comprehensive overview of the difference (that actually matter) between a single and multiple piece board. All of the board I'm looking at right now is 6cm, the 5cm are all joined/multiple piece of wood, and because the multiple wood piece is so significantly cheaper, I just want to know more about the two type before officially purchasing a board that I will be stuck with for a while (all under $300 of course ;D)

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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #8 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:20 pm 
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>> Single piece boards are better than multi-piece boards for both strength and durability. <<

This is not true in most cases. Laminates (not veneers) are not just economical, they provide advantages over single, massive pieces of wood in many applications. A properly crafted laminate will be aesthetically quite pleasing in most ways. A poorly crafted board of any kind is unpleasant in many ways.
Alternating or reversing the grain on adjacent strips of wood produces an inherently stable situation where possible warping is offset by opposing linear forces. A single block of wood has incredible tensions deep inside it. These are unpredictable and they do not go away by "seasoning." Internal moisture does not migrate out of the center of a block of wood that is 12 inches thick in just a few decades and the osmotic difference that develops between the moist interior and the drying exterior is unstoppable.
Wood glues are many times stronger than wood fibers. A dropped laminated board could crack anywhere but never on the glue line.

You can buy a laminated go board from any of the renowned supplies with confidence and you will enjoy looking at it as much as playing on it. Don't confuse practicality, utility and economy with the status of owning a beautiful cultural artifact from Japan or China. Don't confuse a laminated construction with a veneer.

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Post #9 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:57 pm 
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My preference order
single piece hyugu kaya > single piece honkaya > single piece Chinese kaya > multi-piece hyugu kaya > multi-piece honkaya > multi-piece Chinese kaya > Single piece other types of wood > multi-piece other types of wood

Also weigh other aesthetic factors against the budget before deciding the best board to buy.

Why pick kaya over other woods? Because after around 15 more years, you might not be able to buy a kaya goban :)

Quote:
Q. When selecting a solid wood floor goban, what are the factors we should use to select the best product which fits our budget? What is the order of factors we should look at: type of wood, cut of wood, color of wood, thickness of wood, straightness of woodgrain, density of woodgrain, how long the wood was dried, imperfections such as cracks and knots, the sound a stone makes when placed on the floor goban, the oil content of the wood, etc.
A. Type of wood is the first factor to determine the board you want to purchase, then cut of wood, how long the wood was dried, straightness of wood grain, density of wood grain, color tone (oil content of the wood), thickness, sound of stone when placing on the board. Crack and knot are out of discussion and out of criteria.
Q. In your opinion, how many more years will real kaya wood remain a viable option for making floor gobans as there is difficulty in renewing a resource which needs hundreds of years to grow to the right size.
A. Japan-grown Kaya wood is no longer available as a material for high quality Go board. In our national forest, cutting Kaya tree, which can be processed into highest quality go board, is being prohibited. There are Kaya forests inChina, but it is also prohibited to cut down Kaya trees since 15 years ago. Until 20 years ago,ChinaexportedJapanlots of Kaya wood sufficient to make 200,000 go boards. Myanmar, bordered withChina, still have abundant Kaya trees. Most of the imported Kaya wood brought intoJapanare already processed into Go board and exported back toChinaas Go equipment. I think that Kaya wood will be in stock just for another 15 years, taking our stock, imported Kaya from China, and only a bit of log to be cutting down in the future into consideration. There are some American Kaya, but it is too light weight due to its lower density of wood, as compared to Japanese Kaya. So it is not suitable for Go board.

quoted from http://rusgo.org/go-sets/

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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:52 am 
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bogiesan wrote:
Don't confuse a laminated construction with a veneer.

ok, I'm a little confused, as I'm sure I've used these terms interchangeably in the past. Can you explain the differences a little better?

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Post #11 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:28 am 
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A veneer is just a thin sheet overlaid on something to make it look better. So for example, goban made of multiple pieces of wood sometimes have a veneer to make it look like a single piece of wood on its surface.

Laminate construction implies compressing layers. These layers might consist of different materials, including composites like fiberboard (something like what clipboards are made of). Laminate boards might also have veneers.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #12 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Manchu wrote:
A veneer is just a thin sheet overlaid on something to make it look better. So for example, goban made of multiple pieces of wood sometimes have a veneer to make it look like a single piece of wood on its surface.

Laminate construction implies compressing layers. These layers might consist of different materials, including composites like fiberboard (something like what clipboards are made of). Laminate boards might also have veneers.


Ah, I see the confusion. We are going to have the same issue with the term “composite” which could imply compressed wood fibers. A go board, or a cutting board, that is made of several individual pieces, known to woodworkers as sticks, is said to be a laminated composite. One might also say the pieces have been glued up. It is true that veneers are laminated on top of a substrate but the term laminate also describes two surfaces, often machines to be very flat, glued together and usually clamped. See def. 3 below.

Definition of laminate (Entry 1 of 3)
transitive verb
1 : to roll or compress into a thin plate
2 : to separate into laminae
3a : to make (something, such as a windshield) by uniting superposed layers of one or more materials
b : to unite (layers of material) by an adhesive or other means

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Post #13 Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:13 pm 
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Jan 22, 2018. What's the difference between veneer and laminate? In short, veneer is a thin layer of real hardwood applied to a less expensive material such as plywood. Laminate is a printed surface made to look like real wood, but usually made of plastic and bonded to a composite base.
from NBF

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 Post subject: Re: Multiples vs Single piece(s) wood(s) go board
Post #14 Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:43 pm 
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Hey, CatLvr, did you get your go board?

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