Life In 19x19 :: lines and hoshi elevated?

Perhaps in the production of your board a little too much ink was used, or maybe the ink was a little too thick?

I don't know if you can see the sliver of light between the piece of lead (for a mechanical pencil) and it's shadow... it's really hard to capture in a picture. You can kind of see the curvature of the star point in this picture as well.

Just play san-san. Then it becomes your opponent's problem.

Traditionally, the lines and hoshi are lacquer (not truly ink, which would be too thin to cause this, and if water-based, might even seep into the grain). The lacquer is applied to the underside of a slightly dulled katana blade, and rocked onto the board in a fluid motion.

Yasuji Miwa and father Saburo Miwa drafting lines on a Goban

Be glad - if you are having this issue, it means your board is high-quality.

As you use the board, the lacquer will naturally flatten with repeated impacts, and the behavior will be less noticeable.

So stop worrying, go and play some games! =)

I see that Chuck responded, but I was flipping through his site (drooling over some boards and stones), and came across this picture, which appears to show the raised lacquer that your board has. It looks really nice

Unfortunately, I know next to no one around here that plays, so it only gets used occasionally for study.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Just play san-san. Then it becomes your opponent's problem.

Now that's whole board thinking! Know the lay of the land*...

*quoted freely from General Tacticus' "The Art Of Go", of course

If you look carefully at the 4th picture of my goban here, you can see what I mean by fine Japanese craftsmanship. I think it adds flavor to the board. I don't think the Japanese intend for the stones to rest perfectly centered on each spot. Check the SL article on wabi sabi and you'll find that they want just the right sort of imperfection for their ideal aesthetic pleasures.

“Recently, both in Japan and in the West, boards said to be made from Chinese kaya trees are being sold at very low prices. However, these are not really kaya, but a related species of kaya. These boards have a strong tendency to crack and warp. The surfaces are also prone to chapping or flaking.”

tchan001 wrote:

Quote:

This is a quote off your blog, which quotes Kiseido. There's both truth and some questionable information here. It's true that the Kaya coming out of China is 'torreya grandis' as opposed to 'torreya nucifera'. However, I must question the assertion that torreya grandis has a tendency to crack and warp. From what I've seen, I believe that torreya grandis is so similar to nucifera as to be indistinguishable, and that the cracking and warping are a result of some Goban makers' rushed processes, which don't allow the wood sufficient time to cure. Kaya of both subspecies takes many years to cure properly, and it's a particular skill to the older Goban makers.

Granted the Chinese Kaya boards are not Hyuga Kaya from Japan, but that doesn't mean they are problematic boards as a result.

Author:	tj86430 [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:48 am ]
Post subject:	lines and hoshi elevated?
This may seem like a silly question, but is it normal that the lines and especially the hoshi are elevated to the extent that it is difficult to place stones on them? This is a "feature" of my new board, and I'm wondering whether it is normal. (Of course I don't have to place stones directly on hoshi so it is not a big deal as such, but I'm curious)

Author:	Solomon [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
No, that is not normal at all, and is not a "feature" . Could you perhaps post a picture of this unusual board? This is just a hunch, but it could be a board for the visually impaired of some sort.

Author:	tj86430 [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
I can try to take a picture, but I doubt that the elevation will be visible. It isn't very large, but enough to make the stone "wobble" and most likely to slide off if placed directly on the star point. As if a bit too much paint was used to paint the lines and especially the hoshi. What is the normal procedure when making the boards? Are the lines painted on even surface, or are they first "carved out" before applying paint so that the resulting surface is even? The board in question is not of the cheapest kind, it is a two-inch japanese kaya board (masame grain), and I'm otherwise very happy with it, but slightly irritated about the elevated star points

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
On traditional boards, the lines are inked on, so they may be very slightly elevated. Perhaps in the production of your board a little too much ink was used, or maybe the ink was a little too thick?

Author:	tj86430 [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
HermanHiddema wrote: Perhaps in the production of your board a little too much ink was used, or maybe the ink was a little too thick? That is what I thought too, but since I have no comparison I wasn't sure what can be considered normal. So far my thinking is that it is normal that they are a bit elevated, but on my board they are a bit more elevated than they should be. I wish there was an easy method for measuring the elevation, but since we are talking about fractions of a millimeter a guess there is not.

Life In 19x19 http://lifein19x19.com/

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Author:	rubin427 [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
My board is also like that. In my case, it's the result of lacquered lines. When my board was new, it bothered me that the stones would tip to one side or the other as a result of sitting on a subtly raised line. These days I don't even notice. edit: I don't know if you can see the sliver of light between the piece of lead (for a mechanical pencil) and it's shadow... it's really hard to capture in a picture. You can kind of see the curvature of the star point in this picture as well.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
Just play san-san. Then it becomes your opponent's problem.

Author:	tj86430 [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
rubin427 wrote: I don't know if you can see the sliver of light between the piece of lead (for a mechanical pencil) and it's shadow... it's really hard to capture in a picture. You can kind of see the curvature of the star point in this picture as well. Yep, looks a lot like my board.

Author:	ChradH [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Just play san-san. Then it becomes your opponent's problem. Now that's whole board thinking! Know the lay of the land... quoted freely from General Tacticus' "The Art Of Go", of course

Author:	cthomas [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
Traditionally, the lines and hoshi are lacquer (not truly ink, which would be too thin to cause this, and if water-based, might even seep into the grain). The lacquer is applied to the underside of a slightly dulled katana blade, and rocked onto the board in a fluid motion. Yasuji Miwa and father Saburo Miwa drafting lines on a Goban Be glad - if you are having this issue, it means your board is high-quality. As you use the board, the lacquer will naturally flatten with repeated impacts, and the behavior will be less noticeable. So stop worrying, go and play some games! =)

Author:	tj86430 [ Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
cthomas wrote: Traditionally, the lines and hoshi are lacquer (not truly ink, which would be too thin to cause this, and if water-based, might even seep into the grain). The lacquer is applied to the underside of a slightly dulled katana blade, and rocked onto the board in a fluid motion. Yasuji Miwa and father Saburo Miwa drafting lines on a Goban Be glad - if you are having this issue, it means your board is high-quality. As you use the board, the lacquer will naturally flatten with repeated impacts, and the behavior will be less noticeable. So stop worrying, go and play some games! =) Thank you, this puts my mind more or less at ease (not that I was that worried, surprised might describe it more accurately). As I said it doesn't really affect the use, the stone can always be placed a bit "off-center", but since my earlier, cheap, folding board didn't have this characteristic, I was somewhat surprised when I saw it in my new, tens-of-times more expensive board.

Author:	judicata [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
I see that Chuck responded, but I was flipping through his site (drooling over some boards and stones), and came across this picture, which appears to show the raised lacquer that your board has. It looks really nice .

Author:	topazg [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
judicata wrote: I see that Chuck responded, but I was flipping through his site (drooling over some boards and stones), and came across this picture, which appears to show the raised lacquer that your board has. It looks really nice . Blah, I want a really nice set from there, they look great. Where's my money tree gone

Author:	Shentar [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
I was kind of surprised at the raised lines when I got my board from Shodan Imports. Then I remembered a mention of the lines being raised in a discussion on the darkening of katsura boards with age. It would be nice if the star points would wear down a little, and I'm glad to hear that it will happen with use. Unfortunately, I know next to no one around here that plays, so it only gets used occasionally for study.

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Author:	xed_over [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
Shentar wrote: Unfortunately, I know next to no one around here that plays, so it only gets used occasionally for study. Study more

Author:	mdobbins [ Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
ChradH wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: Just play san-san. Then it becomes your opponent's problem. Now that's whole board thinking! Know the lay of the land... quoted freely from General Tacticus' "The Art Of Go", of course According to Sun Tzu, you should prefer the high ground....

Author:	tchan001 [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
It's a good sign when the lines and hoshi is elevated. It means that the ink was probably applied on top of the wood so that the wood isn't damaged at all. Usually the application of lacquer with a sword-like implementation is a sign of fine Japanese craftsmanship. It's much nicer than silk screened version and far far superior to versions which are actually grooves cut into the wood. If you look carefully at the 4th picture of my goban here, you can see what I mean by fine Japanese craftsmanship. I think it adds flavor to the board. I don't think the Japanese intend for the stones to rest perfectly centered on each spot. Check the SL article on wabi sabi and you'll find that they want just the right sort of imperfection for their ideal aesthetic pleasures.

Author:	cthomas [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
tchan001 wrote: If you look carefully at the 4th picture of my goban here, you can see what I mean by fine Japanese craftsmanship. I think it adds flavor to the board. I don't think the Japanese intend for the stones to rest perfectly centered on each spot. Check the SL article on wabi sabi and you'll find that they want just the right sort of imperfection for their ideal aesthetic pleasures. Amen to that. The other thing about chinese-made Kaya boards is the tabletop laminate finish, which creates a harsh optical glare and higher-pitched "click" when compared to the clear finish and better resonance of a properly waxed surface. Quote: “Recently, both in Japan and in the West, boards said to be made from Chinese kaya trees are being sold at very low prices. However, these are not really kaya, but a related species of kaya. These boards have a strong tendency to crack and warp. The surfaces are also prone to chapping or flaking.” This is a quote off your blog, which quotes Kiseido. There's both truth and some questionable information here. It's true that the Kaya coming out of China is 'torreya grandis' as opposed to 'torreya nucifera'. However, I must question the assertion that torreya grandis has a tendency to crack and warp. From what I've seen, I believe that torreya grandis is so similar to nucifera as to be indistinguishable, and that the cracking and warping are a result of some Goban makers' rushed processes, which don't allow the wood sufficient time to cure. Kaya of both subspecies takes many years to cure properly, and it's a particular skill to the older Goban makers.

Author:	deja [ Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
cthomas wrote: tchan001 wrote: Quote: “Recently, both in Japan and in the West, boards said to be made from Chinese kaya trees are being sold at very low prices. However, these are not really kaya, but a related species of kaya. These boards have a strong tendency to crack and warp. The surfaces are also prone to chapping or flaking.” This is a quote off your blog, which quotes Kiseido. There's both truth and some questionable information here. It's true that the Kaya coming out of China is 'torreya grandis' as opposed to 'torreya nucifera'. However, I must question the assertion that torreya grandis has a tendency to crack and warp. From what I've seen, I believe that torreya grandis is so similar to nucifera as to be indistinguishable, and that the cracking and warping are a result of some Goban makers' rushed processes, which don't allow the wood sufficient time to cure. Kaya of both subspecies takes many years to cure properly, and it's a particular skill to the older Goban makers. Thank you, Chuck, for mentioning this. That statement from Kiseido is indeed misleading. Granted the Chinese Kaya boards are not Hyuga Kaya from Japan, but that doesn't mean they are problematic boards as a result. I think Kiseido discredited themselves with that statement and I'll never buy a board from Kiseido because of that. Books, on the other hand, are an entirely different matter.

Author:	cthomas [ Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: lines and hoshi elevated?
Quote: Granted the Chinese Kaya boards are not Hyuga Kaya from Japan, but that doesn't mean they are problematic boards as a result. That's a good point. Economic pressures in China do create a manufacturing base that makes goods that are as inexpensive as possible - however, how can anyone apply this to a tree that's been growing in a Chinese forest since before the Norman invasion of England? There's a unfair stigma associated with China - that everything Chinese must be bad and anything Japanese must be quality, but it's oversimplifying things. We have to remember that Chinese weiqi is still recovering from Mao's war on culture during the 60's, that defamed Go as one of the "four rotten pasts". People were forced into smashing up and burning some of the most beautiful and intricate works of art - I'm sure that many beautiful Go boards suffered the same fate. It takes time to recover from something like that. There are hopeful signs of recovery already - the art of Yunzi has been rediscovered, for example. As the Chinese economy matures, I expect to see handmade Weiqi boards coming out of China, from independant artisans who rediscover and reinvent the ancient Chinese styles of Go equipment. We can all look forward to the renaissance of Chinese culture, especially as concerns Go. A nation with so rich a cultural heritage doesn't deserve anything less.