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 Post subject: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #1 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:24 am 
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As my username suggests I am completely new to the world of Go. My father has tasked me with finding a new home for his GO set from Japan as he stopped playing a few years ago. The set is completely hand made in Japan and he purchased it at some point in the 70s when he lived there.

I have no idea what wood the board and the bowls are made of, and how to gauge what condition this set is in to get a fair price for it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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Image

Board: As you can see the reflections in the bowl photos on the board show its age. It is made from one piece. Not sure of the wood. Dimensions: Length 454 mm, width 410mm and height of 42 mm.

Stones: Slate and Clamshell. Only one shell stone has a chip on the edge and three of the slate stones have chips on the edge. Is this acceptable? Stone diameter is 21mm and thickness 8mm. The black stones appear to be slightly larger at 21.5mm, but I unfortunately don’t have a caliper to measure these.

Bowls: Unsure of material or how to best describe these. Softer wood than the board and definitely not bamboo. Diameter is 135mm and height with lid around 120mm

As mentioned before, any help identifying what this set is and how the community would view its condition would be great.
Many thanks,

Max

full album: http://imgur.com/a/78pnB


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Post #2 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:25 am 
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Hello Max,
Others (gowan, Erythen) are probably much better at this than me, so you may want to contact them directly. I feel reluctant to reply, but I still do, for what it's worth.

Online pictures do not always do justice to go sets, but I think it is a lovely set. The sentimental/emotional value to you and your family members may be (much) higher than market value though.

It looks to me to be a set which might have been described as an economical or practical set. Quality and size of the stones look like that to me, that is. The type of wood of the bowls I do not know, but I as far as I know, it is fairly common/economical. The board does not look like (more expensive) kaya to me, because of the (absence of clear) grain, which also indicates it is a common/economical board and type of wood. The thickness of the board also seems to me to indicate a common/economical board. It may be handcrafted, but in a more industrialized way than upper end/traditional boards, based on what I can see from the pictures of grid and the grid lines (imprinted??).

The set seems to have more than just its fair share of use. Some like this and appreciate 'patina', others don't. And with second hand go sets, it is just what a prospective buyer wants to spend for it. Best is to just play it.

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 Post subject: Re: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #3 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:49 am 
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Hello Max,

one question is important in case you’re thinking of offering the set here: from where do you ship? Because of the weight of such a set the cost could be quite high if shipping to abroad. (If in Europe, AND if the price you’d be asking for would be within my relatively tight budget, I might be interested.)

For a used set it looks quite nice to my eyes (definitely “not too shabby”), the stones would need quite some cleaning, though, before I’d be willing to offer anybody a game using these.


But really, Max, come on ;-) this is a nice set, I’d suggest that you keep it, and …
• watch a few games, for example on http://www.online-go.com,
• visit The Interactive Way To Go,
• read en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game) in case you don't really know about Go,
• and play Go … to never again be bored, always having something to learn till the end of your life :-)
• (and not to forget the nice community!)

;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #4 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:28 pm 
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I don't think you could get very much for this set. The stones look like they might be slate and shell, but discolored and of poorer grade (probably jitsuyo).

It is easier to see the stone grade if you put like 20 of them on the board with the grains facing up and take a nice clear photo of them.

The price of a new set of stones would probably be around 20,000 yen, but a used set with discoloration would go for like a few thousand yen maybe. The bowls look valueless in that condition. The board is quite warn and would fetch maybe a thousand yen if it is a decent wood. Realistically, you might be able to go for a few thousand yen for the set, but unless the board is kaya, it probably won't sell well.

You can see here for example, slightly larger stones with nicer bowls auctioning at only 1700 yen with 16 hours to go: http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/225335428

Here is another sample from a professional seller: http://page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... t495512783

Edit: I would like to add one exception. If the stones are Hyuga clamshell it would increase the price substantially. You would probably need proof though. I have never seen them in person so I wouldn't even know how to identify them.

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Post #5 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Hello Max,

Another member recently has success with H2O2 with his shell stones. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #6 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:28 pm 
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Hello,
There are a lot of freak auctions on Yahoo Japan with stones going for far less than they should. I once found a beautiful, brilliantly carved pair of mulberry bowls and antique stones for $20 when, though if their true value were known, should have sold for upwards of $500.

Focus on Ebay comparisons since that's where you'll most likely sell them (if not here on 19x19).

Yes, the stones are slate and shell, and they're definitely not Hyuga since I can easily see the Mexican grain. I can't tell their grade, but on just a cursory glance, without seeing more, I'd say they're either moon or snow grade (but I'm basing that off of only three stones, so I could easily be wrong).

Other than the grade, the size of the stones will determine cost. They look to be somewhere between size 25 and 30, but without a measurement in mm I can't say for sure.

Edlee is right about the cleaning. I can tell from looking that the yellowing that they'll whiten completely if done properly...I have an article on what to do if you'd like the link.

Just from the coloring of the wood, I'd guess it's genuine Kaya, but I couldn't say for sure without getting a good look at the player's side grain. Whatever the case, a little oiling will give the board a much healthier glow.

I'm not sure what the bowls are since they've darkened a lot. If they have a swirly lid, then their chestnut and of little to no value. If the grain is strait (and it looks to be the case) then they're probably keyaki (zelkova) or the much more prized kuwa (mulberry).

Do the bowls have an artisan stamp on the bottom? If so, then they're likely of a higher material.

Hope this helps :)


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 Post subject: Re: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #7 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:32 pm 
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All that said...if the board is Kaya, then on Ebay you could easily get $300 for the set...higher if the stones are moon/snow grade (determined too on size).

If the stones are size 30, not missing anything, not damaged, no glass stones, snow grade and cleaned, and the board is Kaya, I'd price the set around $500 - $700 on Ebay.


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Post #8 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm 
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Erythen wrote:
All that said...if the board is Kaya, then on Ebay you could easily get $300 for the set...higher if the stones are moon/snow grade (determined too on size).

If the stones are size 30, not missing anything, not damaged, no glass stones, snow grade and cleaned, and the board is Kaya, I'd price the set around $500 - $700 on Ebay.


Dammit, Erythen :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #9 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:05 am 
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Bonobo wrote:
Dammit, Erythen :twisted:


:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

I actually just saw the link to the larger photo album so I can make a few more comments.

The board is definitely Katsura, not Kaya. I don't often see one piece Katsura table boards (that weren't formerly floor boards)...mostly just fordable ones.

The bowls are itame cut (not Masame) so they're probably chestnut. If you oil them, be warned that with chestnut bowls I've often seen spots of varnish start to peel within a few weeks of oiling.

Owing to China's slower than snail-speed international internet connections I can't get a good look at the stone/grain pictures. I do, however, believe they'll clean up easily.


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 Post subject: Re: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #10 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:25 am 
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Thanks for all the comments so far! Lots of information there and even some food for thought, I will definelty try a few beginner GO games before making any decisions about selling this set. I am based in the UK and freight around the world seems to be quite reasonable.

I'll clean the stones as well and oil the bowls. Any reccomendations for the type of oil to use?

I will have a closer look at the grain patterns and search for hints of how it was manufactured to get a better idea. There are a few irregularities on the board pattern where the lines meet at 90 degrees on the perimiter of the board suggesting that it wasn't printed on. The lines sometimes tapper a litte as if a brush was lifted, and in other cases the line widens a little as it meets the other line as if the paint was wet. The bottom of this photo its quite clear on the vertical lines that meet the bottom horizontal: http://i.imgur.com/IehbSnx.jpg

In regards to the Mexican clam, is that a recent development? or have the Japanese stone manufacturers been doing it for decades?


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Post #11 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:10 am 
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The grid on the board was likely lacquered on, depending on the artisan, via the blade of a Katana, or a special edged tool.

Mexican stones have been used for more than a century now. Hyuga stones were discovered in the mid-meiji era (1880's/1890's) but were quickly depleted. Due to overfishing only a rare few clams now actually grow long enough to be harvested for stones. The typical clam lives about 15 years, and they need to live at least 20 to make good stones.

Mexican clamshell was discovered by chance by a Japanese fisherman/businessman (not sure) who also happened to be an amateur Go stone maker. They quickly replaced Japanese stones...though the Suwabute (native Japanese clams) are still most highly prized.

Mr. Kuroki's website has a lot of good information about the manufacturing process, and he welcomes questions about sets.
http://www.kurokigoishi.co.jp/english/

With oiling...Chestnut will absorb the smell of the oil quite readily (something I haven't noticed with other woods). I've used Linseed oil before, but the smell stayed with the wood for almost a year afterward. And again, there's a chance the varnish will start to peel off if the wood is Chestnut which is something to consider too. If you use Linseed, please be sure to note the warnings about flammability...if you throw the used, wet rags into a pile they may start on fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Help identifying GO set from Japan
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:20 am 
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Hi, I'm new here so I'm not sure how old the post is, but I thought I might try to answer some of your questions by looking at the photo. I have a lot of experience with Go equipment.

Shell and slate stones, on the thinner side, maybe 8.4mm? Going from memory here, I haven't figured out how to see the original picture right now :) The staining is from finger oil, happens to all old shell, This is pretty light, my 30 year old set is about that color, but was heavy use. I don't mind it and would let it go because shell can be fragile. Wash hands before use, and a soft cloth in the bowl is easy and much more than most would do to take care of the stones, more staining would take decades of heavy use. If the grain appears light and straight, (it seemed so with my poor eyesight) it is higher grade, possibly snow, hard to tell from the photo. Stones of this age are generally made from Mexican clam, if it was Japanese clam the price would be through the roof, but not likely to be that old. You can probably buy these new for a couple hundred dollars, again depending on grade which can easily double the price, although many people discount older used equipment since the new can be purchased for not much more, it has to be someone who appreciates antiques (I'm thinking of the term 'sabushi', an old thing well used and loved)

Bowls look almost certainly chestnut, made in Japan(the whole set clearly from Japan), go for about $100 or a little more new. They are a good match for the stones I think because the stones are thin, bigger bowls would be aesthetically a little strange.

The board is really interesting to me. It appears to be of one piece, and not the right color for katsura and certainly not for shin-kaya, could that possibly be a one piece kaya (torreya nucifera) board? A piece that big would take a tree 500 years old, and they are protected now. But in the 70s not that uncommon to have even kaya for good equipment (that looks a very decent set, would not have been cheap even back then. The stones wouldn't be thicker because that would be strange with a table board). Those kaya boards go for thousands new, and one piece is pretty special because a) less warping, no splitting or mismatching and b) a piece that big they maybe could have done a floor board with it. It looks in good condition. If this was an 'ordinary' set, it's hard to believe they wouldn't use katsura (Japanese Judas tree, harder, darker) which was far more common and cheaper then.

Value is what someone will pay for something. The bowls and stones, maybe $200 or so, on the right venue, maybe more if someone appreciates antiques or if those stones are snow grade. Board would definitely need some close, clear pictures and description, for me to confirm if it's one piece good condition kaya, Might be hard to find a buyer, but I wouldn't sell it unless the price was pretty high. Very careful with it, kaya is a soft wood, you can't even write on it on a sheet of paper without potentially scratching the surface. It's easy to make a fabric cover (I did this once and I can't sew). It is also possible to be affected by long term direct sunlight, big changes in temperature or humidity, so caution in placement and storage advised.

You can use it all the time with a little bit of care, and save it for future generations, they only get better in my opinion. I recently gave what I believe is the oldest shell and slate stones in existence to a friend (17th century), told him to use them. The finger staining is heavy, and the shell is even indented where the fingers go. He wants to clean them, sigh. Think of it as an old painting, sure, you can hit it with oil or water or cleaners, but, ouch. The stones I gave my friend are not biconvex or regular like stones of the last hundred years. If your set is complete, that is great, 180 white, 180 or 181 black? I wouldn't worry about small chips in a couple, that happens too, and I think if you're selling this you should go with the antique nature, and try to identify if it's kaya or not (if you can take very good clear shots and send them to me, I can send them to a kaya board maker in Japan and ask for his expert opinion.) I have calipers and can match all grades of stone (I have examples of each grade and size) but may not be worth it for back and forth shipping of a few stones from UK to US for stones at this price point. If I was buying the set and it was kaya, I wouldn't care too much about the stones or bowls, just so it's a reasonable match and playable now, I would be placing the value on the board and would probably buy the set for $800 (bargain for me). No kaya, maybe $350. Careful in packing, the corners and edges should be sharp and they are easy to dent, so it needs a huge box with no empty space and two layers of packing material (bubble wrap, then stabilizer/filler) in my opinion.

In terms of shipping, the stones and bowls should be packaged very securely and probably wouldn't be prohibitive in cost with some research (I used to get things like this from Japan by air with no customs from DHL or something for only tens of dollars, I have no idea how they did it so inexpensively, but apparently it's possible. The board is tricky because of dimensional weight, requires lots of packing so sending by air can be expensive, but if I'm right it's one piece kaya, it's worth it. Still had things like this shipped from Japan by air, price didn't go more than $100 as I recall, and never had a customs issue. When I shipped overseas from the US, I generally used USPS or UPS, but not by air because the price was so high. I'm not sure how to re-check this site, but I will try if I can help you. Best, Janice


Would like to add, traditional Japanese Go boards use no lacquer or stain, only a clear wax which is tediously rubbed on (I've done it, it was 20 hours for one board). I would wipe the equipment only with a soft cloth only, just in case not to make any noticeable effect that might affect value. The graining pattern on kaya can be strange, but the orangey color and odd graining, I've only seen on kaya. If it appears or feels shiny or glossy in any way, then someone has put a varnish or coat on it or it's some different wood that is a definite no for traditional Go equipment because any kind of glare can be unpleasant on the eyes. You can generally tell by playing a stone, kaya in particular produces a soft sound and a gentle feel, and the stone will not slip around (a beginner admittedly may not know how to place a Go stone the traditional way, or know what to be listening/looking for). The shell could maybe be cleaned, not just wiped (I have not cleaned, just wiped shell, although I've restored many Go sets) and these kinds of stones are not terrifically expensive new, but that would be appearance only to raise the price a bit, finger oil is going on those stones, and that's what they look like after a while. It probably can't be Japanese clam because those were fished out a very long time ago (100 years), I have seen them, very hard to tell but the white has a pink component, if that makes sense, and it may be impossible to tell with finger oil staining, but those can go 100K so maybe not heavy use no wipe down after :) If you are going to sell it, I would do it on a Go forum first if you can make some confirmation it's kaya. Ebay is fine if it isn't, do explain it's an antique but definitely playable, good condition, and the stones are not dirty, it is finger oil from decades of use, and the board is one piece, describe advantages.


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Post #13 Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:25 am 
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Sigh. I'm going to stop now. Staring at the closeup of the wood, I really can't tell what color or graining or potential damage might be, it looks darker in the close up so that's more katsura than kaya, but the large picture the color is different and the tiny dents don't make sense for katsura, that wood is much harder than kaya. I give up without seeing it in person, or really high quality multiple photos. :) Someday, I'll do a whole thing on equipment, I used to be the biggest seller of Go equipment in the US and still have samples in storage :) Welcome to the world of Go! Best, Janice


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Post #14 Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Thank you for the incredible amount of information and background!

Really learning a lot about this set and the craftmanship that goes into them. I have been moving round a lot recently and will unpack the set again and look at it with all the new information in mind.


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Post #15 Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:18 am 
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holymackalandy wrote:
... :) Someday, I'll do a whole thing on equipment, I used to be the biggest seller of Go equipment in the US and still have samples in storage :) Welcome to the world of Go! Best, Janice


Hiya, Janice, I still have one of Samarkand’s handmade leather sets with the smaller sized stones.

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Post #16 Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:29 am 
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Newbie wrote:
Thank you for the incredible amount of information and background! Really learning a lot about this set and the craftmanship that goes into them. I have been moving round a lot recently and will unpack the set again and look at it with all the new information in mind.


I can’t identify the board but those old bowls are most likely chestnut

My more recent acquisitions of used go gear were found on Etsy,eBay, and craigslist. They each exhibit interesting effects of many years of engaged play but not necessarily the care these artifacts deserved. As they say on Antique Roadshow, don’t touch the patina! Let the buyer decide how to clean or rehabilitate the set.

You could always learn to play go. Takes patience. Guaranteed you would gain a new interest in the set.

Please post an update as this story continues to unfold.

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Post #17 Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:26 am 
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Hey! I've been looking for something like this for about a year or so - I don't know if you're still hoping to sell it, but let me know if you'd want to discuss. I'm also a relative novice who's been getting into Go more, so I will definitely be putting it to good use, but I'm not an expert in how much it's worth.

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Post #18 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:03 pm 
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I'd say the bowls are definitely chestnut. I have a pair of chestnut bowls that I "polished" using some kind of oil based furniture polish which we used on out dining room table. The bowls became a uniform brown color; the whitish following the grain lines was lost, something I don't mind at all. One thing to consider is whether oil polish has been used on the inside of the bowls. Any kind of oil will be bad for the shell stones. Indeed, the wood of any bowls intended for use with shell stones have to be well sealed so that resin from the wood doesn't stain the stones. The stones have normal wear and staining from skin oil, what you might call a patina of use. I couldn't say much definitely about the board. I wouldn't consider the set a collectible item, but the whole set looks eminently usable, a great set for regular playing.

edit P.S. I just looked at the face of the board in the close-up photo of the stones in a bowl and I see almost no grain lines on the face, which tells me the board is not kaya or spruce or hiba. It might be katsura or agathis. I saw in Japan a board of similar thickness, made out of ginkgo wood, that looked similar.

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Post #19 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:38 am 
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gowan wrote:
I saw in Japan a board of similar thickness, made out of ginkgo wood, that looked similar.


I have a ginkgo wood board that has very clear lines. I'll try to post a pic later.

Take care

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Post #20 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:08 am 
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Sorry for the delay. don't have my camera right now (nor will I for a few days), so I had to make do with the smartphone. True colour is much richer, but the pattern should be useful.

O...kay. Sorry, phpBB doesn't like the images, for some reason, so I'm linking them at my GDrive. I have to admit they are not good pics. Anyhow, that's supposed to be Ginkgo wood (and I have no reason to doubt it, but I have to admit I don't have external confirmation).

Take care.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/194FPwe59_GfsCKlbOxxsrt3rwljXHag6/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19EAMJJk4WQRh_2rDYcfIyCV63SAQkh5B/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18yLovZW1gj6w1MutWSFLLBJHowKVcLj-/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/195ji8XBfmTPU_af_VqnAEAQQyuuXEBXn/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18xsO00lQ3JJSlVaQ97iBV15tzZmzIfrL/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nlvyZRQVPtnYRNVKrRAUfucLfpFKw-zS/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Dk14cFa-Wi97JugRR4LmZf2aI4ms4gHH/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yPWBXB17RffkowD7NonWsbXwp46TmYam/view?usp=sharing

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