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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #21 Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:14 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
I assume because they don't think about it. I know quite a few people who have a habit of taking pictures of activities with their cameras and then going through and tagging everyone in the photo, for example.


You can turn that off. You can also just decide who can see those tags if I remember correctly if you don't mind people on your friends list seeing photos of you.


Of course, being old enough that my stupidly drunk doing idiotic crap college party days came quite a while before Facebook and smartphones appeared I'm a tad biased regarding photos of me appearing up online. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #22 Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:21 pm 
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Bonobo wrote:
skydyr wrote:
[..] tagging everyone in the photo

I just disabled that.

But I agree that FB Is Bad. As is the whole net. Wherever on the net you say something, you could just as well shout it across the marketplace. This has to be known.

I agree, and this is sort-of my point. People can say bad things about you everywhere, or disclose info about you anywhere - and its all searchable and easy to find. I don't really see FB as being any worse or better at it than, say, L19. Or Google+, or Twitter, or Yelp, or whatever. FB its a data mining outfit, which is based on people's vanity and the need to share every detail about their personal lives... but this can be easily circumvented by personal restraint and/or being careful - again, same as everywhere else on the web. Other than this, it also has its positive sides, and good things it can be used for (as this thread indicates) and to reject it for a murky reason like that (i.e. 'security problems') which is easily circumvented is strange.

Well, anyways, this is pretty much it.
Don't want to derail this thread even more. Apologies.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #23 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:42 pm 
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Actually, Facebook goes to substantial efforts to track your activity when you're not on Facebook. In the past, even logging out didn't remove their tracking (though I think that might have been fixed).

More importantly to me, any given Facebook page is likely to be invisible to people who are not on Facebook. Apps (including newspapers) on Facebook often do not post real links to someone's timeline, but redirects that direct you to their Facebook app before rerouting you to their web page. They are, in effect, attempting to create a parallel web that doesn't participate in the actual web that we already have.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #24 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:00 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
Actually, Facebook goes to substantial efforts to track your activity when you're not on Facebook. In the past, even logging out didn't remove their tracking (though I think that might have been fixed).
True. And AFAIK it’s not fixed because that would be “broken” from FB’s perspective :-D

But there are plugins that help … e.g. Ghostery and Disconnect.

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More importantly to me, any given Facebook page is likely to be invisible to people who are not on Facebook. Apps (including newspapers) on Facebook often do not post real links to someone's timeline, but redirects that direct you to their Facebook app before rerouting you to their web page. They are, in effect, attempting to create a parallel web that doesn't participate in the actual web that we already have.
Correct.

I don’t use such apps and try never to link to pages that “need” such apps.

And yes, FB’s an cad. But I think I said that already. Always be careful when dealing with assholes. Like the internet, it is like the dark forest. And scoundrels and wolves wait for Little Red Riding Hoods. But this is no news. Well, not to me, that is.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #25 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:16 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
Actually, Facebook goes to substantial efforts to track your activity when you're not on Facebook. In the past, even logging out didn't remove their tracking (though I think that might have been fixed).


Wasn't most of the issue with that being with other websites integrating widgets that allowed you to "share through Facebook" but due to the way it was coded meant that Facebook were getting a log of you loading up this page if you had FB cookies regardless of whether you clicked this widget or not? Logging out of Facebook didn't get rid of the particular cookie used for this if I remember correctly. It wasn't an issue on sites that didn't use this widget though.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #26 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Yup, it was those like buttons, and you're right that Facebook certainly saw this as a feature, so long as users didn't complain too much.

I'm not particularly paranoid--I use Facebook (I was in college back in 2005, so that's pretty much a given), and I don't even always use it from incognito mode, so I'm leaking information. Similarly, I haven't switched from Google to DuckDuckGo, though I've been tempted. But I certainly don't love many of the things Facebook has done.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #27 Posted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:34 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
Actually, Facebook goes to substantial efforts to track your activity when you're not on Facebook. In the past, even logging out didn't remove their tracking (though I think that might have been fixed).

Not to be difficult about it (and not trolling, I swear!), but that also always puzzled me. My thinking is: so what?

For example:
So I go to L19, then maybe SL, then read a friend's blog, and then do some work-related browsing, then check out the new iPad mini... Its all tied up to a fake name and address I gave to FB (if I cared to do that, which I don't.) Why do I care that FB is 'tracking' that? I mean - I hear similar things about Google and other services and have never really seen a problem with that.

FB is harvesting data to look for trends, not to have a dossier on you (or me) personally - I don't think they really care about you (or me) that much. But even if they did, again: so what? Really... So they know you read L19 every day. So what?

At the end of the line, there is a chain-store owner getting some info that in this particular area people are more likely to buy tennis shoes, or something. Or maybe a better idea where to open the next sushi house. Or something. Which can actually benefit me - the selection of things which interest me in my neighborhood might get better. Or maybe the prices get higher, or maybe both... whatever. Life goes on.

I honestly don't get it.

In my family we are also divided on this issue. A few people are scared of FB and refuse to even open an account, and a few others are avid users. Some, like myself, just have an account but do nothing much with it. And I see no difference for those people who refuse FB vs. those who use it a lot - there is no FBI on anybody's doorstep, their browsing experience is no different than mine, they don't get any less spam than I do, their computers don't get any less viruses, and so on... And nobody can really explain to me why they are so scared of FB beyond the generic 'security' argument (which they cannot expand on or delve into) or the above-mentioned 'tracking' (of which any personally damaging consequences are also unclear to me.)

And the funny thing is - some of those who refuse FB themselves - they log into my account more than I do myself - just to see what their friends are up to, or who posted cool pics from their recent vacations, or what they dressed their babies for Halloween as. I find it irritating, I always say: why not get your own account and stop bothering me? But they go in hushed tones: no no, it is too dangerous, the *security* issues, and they they *track* you... no way! When I try to press for more explanation, they just look at me strangely and walk away. And next week they absolutely *need* to log in to my FB account again.

So yeah - to repeat myself - I honestly don't get it.

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Post #28 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:00 am 
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Bantari, knowledge is power. And many people are reluctant to give that power to companies or organizations they have no reason to trust. Perhaps the power is very low - your examples suggest that it is. But I would guess that many people browse sites other than L19, sites that they wouldn't necessarily be comfortable sharing with their boss/spouse/whatever. Perhaps a porn site. Perhaps a Silk Road. But it's deeper or more subtle than that. Perhaps you browsed a Chinese dissident site. Perhaps this can be used against you when you apply for a Chinese visa. The point is that people don't want to have to second guess how their activities are potentially going to be used against them, partly because its impossible to know how this information could be used, and partly a general reluctance to live in this sort of monitored existence.


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Post #29 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:25 am 
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Bantari
The I Have Nothing to Hide argument is so old that you can freely enter these five words into your search engine of choice and find numerous articles explaining to you, why privacy matters.

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Post #30 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:44 am 
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Bantari wrote:
hyperpape wrote:
Actually, Facebook goes to substantial efforts to track your activity when you're not on Facebook. In the past, even logging out didn't remove their tracking (though I think that might have been fixed).

Not to be difficult about it (and not trolling, I swear!), but that also always puzzled me. My thinking is: so what?


Consent is nice.

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Post #31 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:18 am 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Bantari
The I Have Nothing to Hide argument is so old that you can freely enter these five words into your search engine of choice and find numerous articles explaining to you, why privacy matters.

This is certainly true. But an argument being old does not automatically invalidate it.
One could argue that by taking part in this whole 'internet' thingy - you already giving up a part of your privacy.
This is a very old argument as well.

And its not really about not having anything to hide - we all do.
But not using FB is not the solution. Do you think Google does not track your searches? Or any other random service you use?

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Post #32 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:36 am 
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quantumf wrote:
Bantari, knowledge is power. And many people are reluctant to give that power to companies or organizations they have no reason to trust. Perhaps the power is very low - your examples suggest that it is. But I would guess that many people browse sites other than L19, sites that they wouldn't necessarily be comfortable sharing with their boss/spouse/whatever. Perhaps a porn site. Perhaps a Silk Road. But it's deeper or more subtle than that. Perhaps you browsed a Chinese dissident site. Perhaps this can be used against you when you apply for a Chinese visa. The point is that people don't want to have to second guess how their activities are potentially going to be used against them, partly because its impossible to know how this information could be used, and partly a general reluctance to live in this sort of monitored existence.

I understand the reluctance and the danger.
But - are there actually any documented cases of anything like that happening? Is there any evidence that FB is selling personal data rather than wide trends? Do you know of anybody out there who had his/her boss giving them trouble because FB sold this specific boss information about that specific person browsing history?

Or are we just talking hypothetical 'maybe some time in a galaxy far far away'? Because I strongly believe that in such case - the same can be said about almost any service you use on-line. And you either make your peace with that and just tread carefully, or you might as well stay home with a tin-foil hat and boarded-off windows.

For example - how do you know what happens to all the data people are typing into L19? Or everything you say on KGS? Or any search you do on Google can easily be tied into your IP. Or anything you buy on Amazon, any auction you enter on Ebay, etc. There are tons of information-gathering sites on the internet, most of us are using all the time without a second thought. Some services we even happily type in our credit card info into, our SSNs, our addresses, our birth dates, our maiden names, and whatever they ask for. Honestly - I think this is potentially more damaging and dangerous than somebody tagging your image on FB, or FB tracking your search for a new pair of snickers. And yet we do it all the time.

The bottom line is:
If you are into some weird stuff you absolutely don't want the Chinese government to know about - using or not using FB is the least of your problems, I think. You need to use some better methods of staying anonymous than staying away from FB. And even when you use FB, breaking out from under its control is really a child's play, stuff you absolutely need to know and do (regardless of FB) if you into this kind of weird stuff. Or so I hear... ;)

What I am saying here is that I am not sure why FB is being singled out like that.
Every service you use has the potential to gather data on you, some have much more opportunity than FB, and many actually do.
What's so special about FB that makes people tremble in fear of their big bad bosses or the Chinese government? As opposed to all the other data-gathering services out there?

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Post #33 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:13 am 
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Reasonable points, Bantari. I don't necessarily single out FB, but I think it would be difficult (albeit not impossible) for some NSA-like organization to tie together my usage on many different servers. However, this would probably require a specific intention and a targeted investigation. It would be expensive. Facebook (or Google+) make it incredibly easy to run generalized or specific queries across a vast number of activities and people in a single system.

I'm not sure what you mean by evidence - many people have been apprehended for doing something illegal by monitoring their internet activity. The definitions of illegal or "terrorist" are fluid things - they differ from place to place and time to time.

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Post #34 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:19 am 
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Bantari wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Bantari
The I Have Nothing to Hide argument is so old that you can freely enter these five words into your search engine of choice and find numerous articles explaining to you, why privacy matters.

This is certainly true. But an argument being old does not automatically invalidate it.
One could argue that by taking part in this whole 'internet' thingy - you already giving up a part of your privacy.
This is a very old argument as well.

And its not really about not having anything to hide - we all do.
But not using FB is not the solution. Do you think Google does not track your searches? Or any other random service you use?


I just wanted to hint at the fact that your "I'm not getting it" was already answered and explained many times.

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Post #35 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:06 pm 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Bantari wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Bantari
The I Have Nothing to Hide argument is so old that you can freely enter these five words into your search engine of choice and find numerous articles explaining to you, why privacy matters.

This is certainly true. But an argument being old does not automatically invalidate it.
One could argue that by taking part in this whole 'internet' thingy - you already giving up a part of your privacy.
This is a very old argument as well.

And its not really about not having anything to hide - we all do.
But not using FB is not the solution. Do you think Google does not track your searches? Or any other random service you use?


I just wanted to hint at the fact that your "I'm not getting it" was already answered and explained many times.

'Many times' is about as valid an argument like 'so old' from your previous post.
I am obviously not convinced by the arguments thus far, so no matter how old they are or how many times you repeat them, it will not add anything meaningful to this discussion, I think. Do you have anything else?

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Post #36 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:23 pm 
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quantumf wrote:
Reasonable points, Bantari. I don't necessarily single out FB, but I think it would be difficult (albeit not impossible) for some NSA-like organization to tie together my usage on many different servers. However, this would probably require a specific intention and a targeted investigation. It would be expensive. Facebook (or Google+) make it incredibly easy to run generalized or specific queries across a vast number of activities and people in a single system.

I understand that. And I certainly don't deny that FB is collecting all kinds of data. But... you don't need NSA to tie together usage of different services - a simple tie-in with Google (or whichever search engine you use), or the OS manufacturer for example - would easily yield many times the data FB can gather. People can (and probably are) monitored on so many different levels, that I think FB is only a drop in the ocean, and not a very large drop at that.

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by evidence - many people have been apprehended for doing something illegal by monitoring their internet activity. The definitions of illegal or "terrorist" are fluid things - they differ from place to place and time to time.

Doing something illegal and being apprehended - I have absolutely no problems with that. But that usually happens when you already draw attention by other means not by random data gathering, from what I understand. Or by some targeted action, like a sting for child molesters. Again - as I said - I have absolutely no problem with that. If some terrorists and child molesters get taken off the streets - I would gladly have FB or any other service monitor what I do on the internet. But when actions like that are taken against individuals, I am not sure FB data pool is actually involved in that.

So no, what I mean by concrete examples is the non-criminal, everyday stuff, innocent stuff.

Do you know of anybody's boss giving them trouble because FB told the boss of the employee browsing record. For example - you read some Dem forums, while your boss is a Rep, so you lose your job. Or you visit some gay support sites and all of a sudden your visa to Russia is refused. Or did anybody have had any problems with chinese government for playing Go on non-chinese server or visiting a weird website... anything like that. And if any of that can be traced to FB. This is what I am asking, I guess.

Because I have heard of no such cases, ever.
But it still seems to me people are really afraid of such things happening, even if they never did (to my knowledge.)
And personally, I don't think they ever will. But that's just my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you "like" the Iwamoto Go Centers?
Post #37 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Neither "so old" nor "many times" was in any way an argument in itself. It should just express that the argument "I have nothing to hide" / "So what?" was theme of many articles and discussions before. It's like discussing evolution, global warming or the Shoah.
If you already read all the articles regarding privacy and e.g. Facebook and still "don't get it" then I guess there is nothing to add.

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Post #38 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:05 pm 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Neither "so old" nor "many times" was in any way an argument in itself. It should just express that the argument "I have nothing to hide" / "So what?" was theme of many articles and discussions before. It's like discussing evolution, global warming or the Shoah.
If you already read all the articles regarding privacy and e.g. Facebook and still "don't get it" then I guess there is nothing to add.

Well, I admit I have not read everything people wrote about it.
This is why I ask. The arguments given here are 'security', which sort of fizzled, and then 'tracking' - which is the topic right now, and I try to get convinced.

With evolution and global warming I can give you solid arguments, as I did in other threads. I have an opinion and I can defend it.
If all you can say about FB is that it was said 'many times', then you are not really contributing very much here other than being dismissive.

PS>
Most of what we can discuss here has been already said somewhere by someone - so why talk at all, no? Is that what you are trying to say?

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Post #39 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
PS>
Most of what we can discuss here has been already said somewhere by someone - so why talk at all, no? Is that what you are trying to say?


When it comes to several hot topics like these, yeah, pretty much ^^

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Post #40 Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
So no, what I mean by concrete examples is the non-criminal, everyday stuff, innocent stuff.

Do you know of anybody's boss giving them trouble because FB told the boss of the employee browsing record. For example - you read some Dem forums, while your boss is a Rep, so you lose your job. Or you visit some gay support sites and all of a sudden your visa to Russia is refused. Or did anybody have had any problems with chinese government for playing Go on non-chinese server or visiting a weird website... anything like that. And if any of that can be traced to FB. This is what I am asking, I guess.

Because I have heard of no such cases, ever.
But it still seems to me people are really afraid of such things happening, even if they never did (to my knowledge.)
And personally, I don't think they ever will. But that's just my opinion.


Have you looked?

Man likes page for same sex parents, boss discovers he's gay, fires him

Some companies are making giving them your facebook credentials, or logging in on a company computer for them to snoop from, a condition of employment

Then there's stalking via facebook: in particular you've got bad ex-boyfriends from highschool/college, where you normally move away and never hear of them again, but where they find you again via facebook (even if you're careful, you can leak your identity if they shared a social circle with you and know your friends/families identities).


it's twitter, but people say stupid stuff online, lose their jobs, get harassed

One of online retailers favorite use of personal data is trying to predict exactly how much you personally would pay for a product, so they can charge you that. Normally you don't want to charge too much for a product because it drives away potential sales, but if you can identify someone likely to buy it at a higher price, you can charge only them more.

Sure, you can have a fake profile for if a boss asks, use a fake name, etc. But it's plenty rational that some people decide they're best off minimizing their use of major data aggregators.

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