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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #41 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:33 am 
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It'd be expensive, but if the AGA is interested in increasing the strength of American pros, there should be some sort of sponsorship of pro tournament/league within North America, where they invite pros from CKJ. That way, AGA pros get several opportunities to play against established pros in Asia, and that game experience will result in an increased level of play all around. This seems to be similar to the model adopted by the Chinese league games where they invited, e.g., pro players from Korea.

Yeah - who is going to pay for it? I guess that's the main question. But more game experience with top pros from other countries seems invaluable.

I guess the alternative is to try to get AGA pros to participate in pro tournaments in Asia. Whatever the case, it seems important to establish more international games. *shrug*

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #42 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:36 am 
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Kirby wrote:
It'd be expensive, but if the AGA is interested in increasing the strength of American pros, there should be some sort of sponsorship of pro tournament/league within North America, where they invite pros from CKJ.
[...]
I guess the alternative is to try to get AGA pros to participate in pro tournaments in Asia. Whatever the case, it seems important to establish more international games. *shrug*


I'm not so sure. I mean, sure, it'd be great to have more tournaments, no question about that. But the players do have opportunities, these days. OGS, KGS... Sure, it's not the same. It beats sending emails [*], and it's much cheaper than other alternatives. In any case, a European pro CAN play against an Eastern pro. It's not the same, sure, but I think it's a quite effective use of resources. IF we want to increase exposure to Eastern players in real life... There's a trove of Eastern qualified pros in the West that feels underused.

Now, assuming he's not that much different from other Western pros, it might be interesting to see how Ryan Li studies. His games at Western online tournaments are interesting; and his winning rate, nothing to brush aside. He does have a pocket-sized kenkyuukai at home, sure, and a dojo [+], but...

Now, from the outside, there are several things I don't like about the Euro/Transatlantic online league. But it is a... an ooteai, of sorts. It provides relatively frequent games for Western players [#]. And I think Tanguy le Calvé has managed to improve significantly, for example. In general, I'd have to check, but I think the games in the last league are much more "spongy" than the early ones; to me, it makes me think of better, more rounded, players. I also miss some players, from both Western societies and also immigrant players. Again, think e-ooteai.

We'll see. Whatever my hesitations, I do think there are many more options for Western go, immensely wider horizons, than 20 years before.

Take care.

[*] Or, gasp, FidoNet messages. Tried that, once.
[+] Teaching is usually not that conductive to improving, but I do see how *some* teaching (some hours a week, not a full time job) can lead one to explore reasons and other paths.
[#] Having several matches a day would improve that, but it wouldn't be as marketable. Possibly better for players, less so for watchers.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #43 Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:06 pm 
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There's a totally different feeling playing for a serious international tournament with cash prizes than playing a random game on the internet. Internet go servers have generally helped in closing the gap between amateur and pro, but I think serious tournaments are a different kind of beast, which would accelerate growth for the weaker participants.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #44 Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:29 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
There's a totally different feeling playing for a serious international tournament with cash prizes than playing a random game on the internet. Internet go servers have generally helped in closing the gap between amateur and pro, but I think serious tournaments are a different kind of beast, which would accelerate growth for the weaker participants.


Hm... Well... I didn't say "random".

I do acknowledge that screen play is simply not the same; I don't know to what extent young pros still feel that way, but I'll assume it until I'm convinced otherwise.

However, I do think that if we're trying to make it within a reasonable budget, online is the way to go for a while. I don't think, for example, the current prize chest of the Transatlantic League would cover transport to have all the players together, once. Much less for a league, and not even considering B&B. Getting a player "here" (US or EU; whichever) would be less expensive... but we already have those, do we not?

Off the cuff, I think making sure these new pros have access to the rest of the pros ALREADY in the West [*] would be a better use of resources. We cannot assume eternally deep pockets in the East [+]. If they want to sponsor a Tournament, great. If we can manage to create a Western Invitational with pros from Japan, Korean or Taiwan, fantastic. Meanwhile, I'm thinking baby steps. Once our players are at a level close enough to other West-resident players, then we can try to set up an invitational or something, LG-cup style.

Take care.

[*] Delendas Carthago and all that

[+] Otherwise, the EGC would still be open, and the one in the West Coast wouldn't have had to blast SUE its patrons. I don't know how that will have played into any future plans from Japan. Make that *ANY*.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #45 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:42 pm 
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The next North American Pro Qualification Tournament is apparently set for August 16-21. Games are played live, but will be broadcast on KGS.

https://www.usgo.org/news/2021/08/2021- ... finalized/

https://nationalgocenter.org/content.as ... _id=67220&

https://nationalgocenter.org/content.as ... id=1504256


Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any information yet about who is playing. One of the sources above says 10 players. Another says 12.

No information is available about this at all on the NAGF web page:
https://nagofed.org/

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #46 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:49 am 
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Just got this email from the National Go Center:

The NAGF Pro Qualifier scheduled August 16-21 at the NGC has been cancelled due to concerns about international travel and the recent Covid surge. We would like to thank everyone who volunteered to help with this event and look forward to its rescheduling.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #47 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:42 am 
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Ferran wrote:
Kirby wrote:
There's a totally different feeling playing for a serious international tournament with cash prizes than playing a random game on the internet. Internet go servers have generally helped in closing the gap between amateur and pro, but I think serious tournaments are a different kind of beast, which would accelerate growth for the weaker participants.


Hm... Well... I didn't say "random".

I do acknowledge that screen play is simply not the same; I don't know to what extent young pros still feel that way, but I'll assume it until I'm convinced otherwise.

However, I do think that if we're trying to make it within a reasonable budget, online is the way to go for a while. I don't think, for example, the current prize chest of the Transatlantic League would cover transport to have all the players together, once. Much less for a league, and not even considering B&B. Getting a player "here" (US or EU; whichever) would be less expensive... but we already have those, do we not?

Off the cuff, I think making sure these new pros have access to the rest of the pros ALREADY in the West [*] would be a better use of resources. We cannot assume eternally deep pockets in the East [+]. If they want to sponsor a Tournament, great. If we can manage to create a Western Invitational with pros from Japan, Korean or Taiwan, fantastic. Meanwhile, I'm thinking baby steps. Once our players are at a level close enough to other West-resident players, then we can try to set up an invitational or something, LG-cup style.

Take care.

[*] Delendas Carthago and all that

[+] Otherwise, the EGC would still be open, and the one in the West Coast wouldn't have had to blast SUE its patrons. I don't know how that will have played into any future plans from Japan. Make that *ANY*.


Acutally, it is possible to have an invitational now with near(female) pros NOW as long as there is a set amount from each of the four major go-playing territories, perhaps by nationality rather than pro association (one reason for that would be to be sensitive to the NK). I agree the whole debacle out of desperation (and cultural differences) of the sueing situation may have left a lot of aji . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #48 Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:30 pm 
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I agree that online go is easier and more practical.

I just claim that if the AGA is serious about having pros competitive in Asia, they need more serious competition with pros in Asia.

I don't think this is that controversial. Practicalities and details wpuld need to be worked out, of course.

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