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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #21 Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:37 pm 
Gosei

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In what sense can you consider CEGO to be a partnership

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #22 Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:48 pm 
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Partnership may not be the correct word. My point was that Europe doesn't lack contacts with China or other asian countries, but the player base is far too small to expect emergence of world-class players.

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Post #23 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:53 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:

It is absolutely vital that this officer would have a proper sense of priorities: facilities and securing patronage. ...

Obviously no-one is going to toss money into an open pit, so an achievable business plan, with specific goals and not the waffle I have seen so far, is needed.

But I'm sure there are plenty of similar and workable ideas.


Thank you very much for your message. When I begin to organize Go here in the region and I said "business plan" every Go player looked at me like someone from an other planet.

I see a big need for an ecosystem for Go in the western world (not only to establish a Pro system). And the structural foundation of the sport, however is expandable (a problem we share with sports like Darts - they have a good media coverage, but at least in Germany no big player and organizational base).

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #24 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:25 am 
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There's also the question "why". Why do you need continental role models?

Maybe it's just me but in the world of table tennis I've always rooted for the Chinese star Ma Long, not for the European Dimitri Ovtcharov or the extremely likeable Timo Boll. Nor for the Chinese Fan Zendong or Xu Xin, however spectacular he is. Ma Long was my role model and inspiration (for being a sucker).

In Go I've been rooting first for Otake Hideo, then Ma XiaoChun and finally Gu Li. Today's players don't inspire me. It would make no difference if Tanguy or Ilya were on top pro level. It's style and personality that matters.

Again, maybe nationality or skin color matters for others to choose a role model.

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Post #25 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:42 am 
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You are not trying to become a professional.

For someone who is trying to become a pro, it is nice to know that it's possible to reach a high level without needing to emigrate to a far east asian country.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #26 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:26 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
There's also the question "why". Why do you need continental role models?


They're easier to invite. If you can have local "stars", you can have them more often at events, which might help retaining new players.

That goes double (actually, much more) if your definition of "professional" includes people who don't much play professionally, but who teach.

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #27 Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:34 pm 
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dust wrote:
baduk wrote:
using AI as a study tool route rather than through a formal training programme.


It's not just AI you need to familiar with life and death and such

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #28 Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:15 am 
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Ferran wrote:
That goes double (actually, much more) if your definition of "professional" includes people who don't much play professionally, but who teach.


Sorry to quote myself, but I just found this today. I think it's the first time I find that many Western instructors in a single site. I'd still prefer to know more about their teaching credentials and not as much about their competition stats, but I do think it's a very important step in the right direction. (I also know a lot of people like titles...)

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #29 Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:12 pm 
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Quote:
Sorry to quote myself, but I just found this today.


Looks like a good idea. But why did they not mention it here? (Or reddit???)

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #30 Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:49 pm 
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Here: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 96#p254996


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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #31 Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:50 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Looks like a good idea. But why did they not mention it here? (Or reddit???)


I *suspect* it's a work in progress. I don't recall seeing that some weeks ago, and the CV don't seem to be linked, yet (they're on the site, though).

I really don't know, but... At the very least, as grumpy as I am sometimes with things, I felt this had to be shared. If I jumped the gun, I'm sorry for the hassle I might cause, and yet I think it merits sharing.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #32 Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:14 pm 
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A new request has been submitted for someone involved to post an update.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #33 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:37 am 
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The why is according to cego is to obtain european and more asian sponsors,if the game is internationaly more competetive the crowds that are willing to watch are much bigger,so they try to increase the level of players gradually and hope at somepoint they have competetive european players,which are absolutely necessary to achieve that,they need more ethnic diversity among the top players

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #34 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:35 am 
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baduk wrote:
The why is according to cego is to obtain european and more asian sponsors,if the game is internationaly more competetive the crowds that are willing to watch are much bigger,so they try to increase the level of players gradually and hope at somepoint they have competetive european players,which are absolutely necessary to achieve that,they need more ethnic diversity among the top players


I'm having some trouble parsing that. CEGO is, AFAIK, an outreach program towards Europe. I don't see how that affects, or not, freezing the AGA pro system (which has since been sort of restarted... sort of). Also "diversity", at this point in time, can mean so many things it basically means nothing on its own. AND the possible diversity, or not, or both associations, is completely different. AGA has 5 pros from two countries, all of them with Chinese surname. EGF has 7 pros, from 6 nationalities, two continents and, being conservative, 3 different ethnic groups.

That Western players need to get better is a given. It's happened to Taiwan, Korea and China itself. That diversity has anything to do with to that... is questionable. And I'd like to read what experience the Chinese system has with it that supports those claims. Also, I don't think increasing diversity works that way. For starters, the pool of Go players is not wide enough. And the system is not strong enough, either, to attract pro-level Idonesians, Malaysians or blind people. Possibly, the European equivalent would be Tahitians, South Americans or Africans, I'm not sure. But to reach that far, first we'd need a much more solid base.

In any case, the semifinals for the 1st Transatlantic Professional Go League will have a Chinese-American, two (?) Caucasians, a Mediterranean, and a player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction [*], from three different continents. Out of four players, and not counting for possible mixed heritages [+]. What's the "diversity" in the Mingren semifinals?

Take care.

[*] Sorry, I don't have the data to be any more precise, and mistakes in that area can be... sensitive.
[+] I've never heard a European refer to himself as such, beyond saying it to reflect were his own parents had come from. Nothing beyond that. I have trouble trying to add the racial fractions of some of my US friends.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #35 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:51 am 
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Ferran wrote:
the semifinals for the 1st Transatlantic Professional Go League will have a Chinese-American, two (?) Caucasians, a Mediterranean, and a player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction [*], from three different continents.


The semifinals are
Ilya Shikshin 4p vs Tanguy Le Calvé 1p
Ryan Li 3p vs Artem Kachanovskyi 2p

Ryan Li is Chinese-Canadian, Ilya Shikshin is Russian, Artem Kachanovskyi is Ukrainian and Tanguy Le Calvé is French.

I only see 2 continents, Europe and America.

Who are the Mediterranean and the player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction?

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #36 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:40 am 
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jlt wrote:
Who are the Mediterranean and the player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction?


Sorry, I mixed in Ali Jabarin, my fault (for Eastern Med). Tanguy le Calvé is, I believe, fom Narbonne. Med.

Ali Jabarin would mean Asia, also. I always have doubts on how to consider Russia, but Ilya Shikshin's city is West of the Urals, so he wouldn't count, if we don't want to get too subjective.

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Last edited by Ferran on Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #37 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:42 am 
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Tanguy is from Nantes (west coast, Atlantic).

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #38 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:34 am 
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Ferran wrote:
baduk wrote:
The why is according to cego is to obtain european and more asian sponsors,if the game is internationaly more competetive the crowds that are willing to watch are much bigger,so they try to increase the level of players gradually and hope at somepoint they have competetive european players,which are absolutely necessary to achieve that,they need more ethnic diversity among the top players


I'm having some trouble parsing that. CEGO is, AFAIK, an outreach program towards Europe. I don't see how that affects, or not, freezing the AGA pro system (which has since been sort of restarted... sort of). Also "diversity", at this point in time, can mean so many things it basically means nothing on its own. AND the possible diversity, or not, or both associations, is completely different. AGA has 5 pros from two countries, all of them with Chinese surname. EGF has 7 pros, from 6 nationalities, two continents and, being conservative, 3 different ethnic groups.

That Western players need to get better is a given. It's happened to Taiwan, Korea and China itself. That diversity has anything to do with to that... is questionable. And I'd like to read what experience the Chinese system has with it that supports those claims. Also, I don't think increasing diversity works that way. For starters, the pool of Go players is not wide enough. And the system is not strong enough, either, to attract pro-level Idonesians, Malaysians or blind people. Possibly, the European equivalent would be Tahitians, South Americans or Africans, I'm not sure. But to reach that far, first we'd need a much more solid base.

In any case, the semifinals for the 1st Transatlantic Professional Go League will have a Chinese-American, two (?) Caucasians, a Mediterranean, and a player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction [*], from three different continents. Out of four players, and not counting for possible mixed heritages [+]. What's the "diversity" in the Mingren semifinals?

Take care.

[*] Sorry, I don't have the data to be any more precise, and mistakes in that area can be... sensitive.
[+] I've never heard a European refer to himself as such, beyond saying it to reflect were his own parents had come from. Nothing beyond that. I have trouble trying to add the racial fractions of some of my US friends.


Maybe i got misunderstood,diversity of top players is the endgoal,in order to get more attention, thats the reason cego tries to improve europeans level,diversity of ethnicity (and countries) is the main point here.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #39 Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:38 am 
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[quote="Ferran"][quote="jlt"]Who are the Mediterranean and the player of Eastern Mediterranean extraction?[/quote]

Sorry, I mixed in Ali Jabarin, my fault (for Eastern Med). Tanguy le Calvé is, I believe, fom Narbonne. Med.

Ali Jabarin would mean Asia, also. I always have doubts on how to consider Russia, but Ilya Shikshin's city is West of the Urals, so he wouldn't count, if we don't want to get too subjective.

Take care.[/quote]
Thats absolutely good enough, russians are not regarded as asians in china,japan, or korea the most important part is that they need to look "different"from the perspective of china

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 Post subject: Re: Why did AGA not continue the pro certification program?
Post #40 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:13 am 
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Looks like there will be a new North American pro by the end of August:

https://www.usgo.org/news/2021/08/2021- ... finalized/


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