I'm starting this thread since discussion about the upcoming pro qualification tournament (https://nagofed.org/docs/2022-pro-quali ... -rules.pdf) has been taking place on a thread that suggests a different subject.

The games will be played in person at the National Go Center (https://www.nationalgocenter.org/), but does anyone know if there will be any efforts to broadcast them live? If not, does anyone know if the game records and results be made available as the tournament progresses?

Based on the scarce updates on the NAGF webpage I'm skeptical we'll hear any results until the tournament is finished, but I'm hoping someone here may have some better information about this.

Thanks.

From USGo:
Selected games of the pro qualification tournament will be live-broadcast on KGS without commentary. Area go players interested in being on the EJ’s recording team can sign up here.

Take care

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玄 之 玄

There's a thread on r/baduk with some info. Basically, they'll do what they can, but the usual volunteers are swamped.

Take care

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玄 之 玄

I still don't really get it.

Why are they having a professional qualifier when they (NAGF) don't have a professional circuit? What is the point, if they can't exist as professional players.

Of course, I'll try to tune in to the games, say thank you for organising and broadcasting them, enjoy watching them, etc ... but meh, what are they trying to do there.

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North Lecale

Here are two websites providing unofficial results of the tournament so far:

https://baduk.club/2022pqt

https://abrasive-scissor-b0e.notion.sit ... ec4043630d

The second site includes some photos of the event.


Some games are being broadcast on KGS in the "Club > National Go Center" room.

Maybe they are trying to create ranks of professional players so that they can have a professional circuit?

Regardless, the NA pros do get invited to international tournaments. So do some amateurs that could be pros. So it makes sense to have the player formally organized as NA pros, even if it's only to the best extent that $30 a year donations can provide.

Personally I think it's a status thing--look we have pros too. I don't see how the average Western amateur benefits from new pros, and I certainly don't think the AGA should subsidize them out of membership dues.

Personally I'm happy to have my membership fee spent on pro qualifications and subsidizing their tournament activity. I think pro competitions are fun and exciting. But I can see why some people don't care. Regardless, the point is to promote Go in general and having pros promotes Go because they create news and being labeled a pro can help them draw bigger crowds.

My club's hometown hero is doing well. I hope he makes it because everyone in the club will be stoked.

I think I see your point, but I see it differently. I think someone in management saw the idea (now a decade old) and made it happen, assuming it would help the spread of go as it had in the early years of the laymen associations in Japan.

Where I think they failed is that they didn't consider how the preconditions where different. Japan already had both a professional system before, and a substrate of very good players meeting regularly. Books, equipment makers... The whole industry.

In the West, publishers and equipment makers struggle. Players, by and large, come to the game late (unless there's a family/cultural tradition), and are expected to get a degree and stop playing. And, by and large, western youth is not considered adult enough at insei ages. And yet, they seem to be expected to pull the professional system on their own.

In sports with similar cadres, how many professionals can make a living without government support programs? Who takes care of their professional systems, and how?

The system seems to have all the vices of a top down approach and all the requirements of a bottom up one. With all my respect for the volunteers at this event: there are prizes and a professional qualification on the table. Record keepers and commentators shouldn't be an after thought.

Take care

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玄 之 玄

Well... you know that piece in one of Pratchett's Guards books where Colon&Nobbs are worried about irony and sarcasm coming their way...?

Dwyrin went there. He could have gone further, but he did go.

Take care.

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玄 之 玄

What a burn! Although since the NAGF isn't just the AGA, it is also CGA right, you have to think he's put a match to a building to watch it burn, and then sat down on a hot blowtorch. Ahem, I think I got too caught up in that burn there.

Seriously though, isn't it down to the NAGF to promote this thing to inifinity and back? If they don't give the basics to the AGA and CGA to publish, well that's kind of their own fault. I certainly expected to see more info on the AGA website about this, and was disappointed not to find anything. However, I only look at the AGA because the NAGF website was hideously uninformative. CGA I didn't look at, because it seems to be totally out of date.

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North Lecale

Dwryin's internet humor was old in 2012 (and it's older now. He sure has a lot to teach and say but I just can't listen.

Putting him aside, I completely expected to not get any results or game records and I was about to post that in a reply when I saw another reply that some games would be shared online. What other professional organization shares qualifying games in real time? I don't think records are usually shared either.

It's different in NA given the lack of other pro news. So I agree that the NAGF would do well to promote this better. But I think their original plan was simply to publish the results (clearly)

Complainers should become volunteers.

I checked Dwryin's channel long enough to see that he has just enough time to complain about NA go and pub stomp kyus but not enough time to commentate any of the qualifying matches.

If anyone is interested, here are the games of the 5. round:

https://online-go.com/review/899821
https://online-go.com/review/899835
https://online-go.com/demo/view/899831
https://online-go.com/review/899834

Number one:

Given 1) The population disparity in many part of the US, and 2) the small number of strong players in both the North America and Europe, and 3+) other factors I've yet to recall, the AGA, and perhaps to a small degree the EGF, but really the AGA might want to consider extending their vision in two ways 1) They really should extend their stone to include all of the Americas in their pro program. Is Fernando Aguilar still alive? Anyway 2) The absolute NUMBER 1 priority from nearly every strategic perspective would be to intercoordinate and link strongly with Europe and the EGF. I've mentioned many times before that random unstrategic attempts to 'get more players' is bad--perhaps even moreso when they work.

However, what I would say to the EGF is this: 1) ratings are fundamentally a tool for speed chess, go whatever. By definition slower games are not for ratings--and that is fine. By definition, the point of the slower game is that game itself. If we don't know who is stronger at slow games but only have a general idea from fast games, it makes it more uncertain who will win that slow game. On the other hand, for speed-go, chess, events, it's all about the statistics. In other words they're good for people who want fast-paced action and drama, but they are also good also for the John Fairbairn number crazy guys--to the statistician knowing who is better and by exactly how much makes having many speed games more exciting.

Instead of having a weekend speed tournament separate from the main tournament, have a fast tournament with many games and transfer the McMahon scores to the beginning of a slow tournament with maybe just six or seven games, like the London Open, or perhaps even less. By definition doing well in fast go is as much a sign of strength and so is perfectly valid to transfer it's Mchahon scores to the slow main tournament, but that way all the problems go away and with 20 or so games fit into two days at the beginning it's a start on shrinking the congress to one week and coordinating it with the American Congresses (which perhaps should be north and south instead of American and Latin American).I can extend. Given, this is an opportunity to pay more attention to quality rather than size.

One of the main problems is that the pros themselves don't care. I don't know how familiar you are with their situations, I certainly am not, but I heard that several of them don't even play go anymore. The only one who's still as active as his European counterparts is Ryan Li. That's 1 out of 6. To make matters worse, Kevin Yang, one of the current favourites for the pro title has said on one of the EGF streams something along the lines that he's not certain if he'll still play go in the future. If strong players only join pro qualifications for the fun of it and/or money (assuming there is a cash prize), then what's the point? This is such a stark contrast to the European pros who all still very much enjoy go. Some are more into competing, others teaching, promoting go or running their go businesses but all 8 of them are still very active in the go world.

I don't think such a lethargic pro system will do much for the promotion of go in the USA nor will such a poorly promoted and organised pro qualification tournament. Dwyrin was pretty much right on all accounts. What was the most disappointing for me is the lack of a proper Twitch/Youtube/KGS/OGS commentary. Devin is trying his best but an, admittedly enthusiastic, 1 dan and whatever co-host he's able to scrounge up at the last moment bumbling through a game that's too high-level for them to understand just doesn't cut it. That the NAGF allowed this to happen is even more mind-boggling if you glance at their board of directors which boasts such illustrious names as Hajin Lee, Michael Redmond and Ryan Li, all of whom are very strong players and excellent commentators. If they weren't able to awaken the other pro players from their sleep, couldn't they themselves have commented a few games? Or at the very least, asked some other strong players to do so? Apparently not. I suppose this qualification tournament and the two new pros will be gathering dust in a decade or so, as are the previous editions of the tournament and the then newly-minted pros. Such a waste of time, money and effort...

One thing that has always made me wonder about the viability of being a professional go player in the US is the cost of healthcare. The US system is private and I gather is quite expensive. Is it actually possible for a pro to support themselves through full-time teaching activities if health insurance is not provided by another employer?

Er... Uh? Not my image of him at all. I mean... you recall old home computers? "Type mismatch. Division by zero. Redo from start"? That kind of "not my image of him". I agree with the rest, mind you.



I like that idea. EGF has sort of a second track to promotion through tournaments, which I like but I'm not sure how actually feasible it is. Also, since you brought up Mr. Fairbairn, we might get the chance to have players more used to... Col. Hathi times? As opposed to Mickey Mouse, I mean.

, have a fast tournament with many games and transfer the McMahon scores to the beginning of a slow tournament with maybe just six or seven games, like the London Open, or perhaps even less. By definition doing well in fast go is as much a sign of strength and so is perfectly valid to transfer it's Mchahon scores to the slow main tournament, but that way all the problems go away and with 20 or so games fit into two days at the beginning it's a start on shrinking the congress to one week and coordinating it with the American Congresses (which perhaps should be north and south instead of American and Latin American).I can extend. Given, this is an opportunity to pay more attention to quality rather than size.



I'm not sure about this. I distrust... what was the English term...? Positive discrimination? Affirmative action? I don't think they work as well as they're supposed to, specially after the initial run; and no one wants to shut the system down once it's served its purpose... which is difficult to measure anyhow.

BUT, I can't fail to notice that of the 13 professionals qualified by NAGO/EGF, not one is a woman. However, 5 out of also 13 Western Pros qualified in Asian orgs *are* female. I seem to recall some rumblings about discrimination against female pros in Asia, maybe some echoes through Mrs. Missingham (not her words, and I couldn't find the root of it all). So, let's see... we can have 7p European female players... but only in the East. Or imported. I think there are half a dozen more Eastern-born female professionals in "the West" (SL doesn't list Hajin Lee... Should she be listed or am I missing something?).

So, my question is... how come we don't have women qualified through the Western systems?



I don't follow that logic. They have to go through the same qualification system, yet you merge women pro events with ama... Also, when you mention Ama events... are they Ama-open or Ama-women only?



I like that part of spreading the dough. But I don't see why it should be restricted to women events. Apropos professionally living from Go... I don't know to what extent it's currently a viable option in the urban West. I', almost certain not with prize money, but I don't know how much you can get with classes, online courses... I kind of doubt books are a significant source of income.

Also, Sr. Aguilar seems to be alive and well, teaching through polgote, among others. Him, and others, should get some sort of recognition by Western Pro organizations by the effort they've put in promoting Go in the West. Oh, and BTW, we should raze Carthage.

Take care

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玄 之 玄

Ouch.

Ryan Li has a dojo, in many meanings of the word. He has a school (NYIG) and another pro at home. That must help. I'm not sure if I'm mixing names (*really* bad with names), but I seem to recall he'd finished an education stage recently? Plus, of course, a child. I wonder how that'll work. I knew a Karate instructor in SW Canada, with a good dojo and membership and all that, who switched to the Mounties because he'd had a child, and the revenue was simply too chaotic. And I think the safety net in Canada is much better than in the States.



Yep. I was kind of surprised the qualification had a money prize. That felt weird. And yet, not a single report on the event. I don't share the priorities, but I might be uninformed.



Hmm... yes. But. Most of them are from places where prices are cheaper. Using a TL;DR version, a Big Mac in Ukraine (2020) cost less than 2$ (2.5 in 2022, but...). 3.4 in Poland... A 50$ online class goes much farther there.



I'm kind of upset beyond caring about this. Not quite, but almost. I know this is supposed to be NAGO's problem, now. But NAGO doesn't keep the venue it's being held in, does it? Also, I really don't much care: can you imagine, say, FIFA saying... "No, no. This is X's country responsibility, now. Don't ask us"? Yeah.



AGA's video channels are a mess. No, don't ask me to volunteer. I haven't been in the Americas in the last 6 years, and only as a tourist before that. I'll notice that Michael Redmond set up his own channel from scratch to continue a program he had on AGA's site. I think there are programs that do this automatically, but in any case, getting your own video from Twitch and uploading it to YouTube does not take weeks, much less months.



Yes. I have my doubts on the actual link between those names and NAGF. OTOH, something similar happened back when the Transatlantic. Remember that one (and only)?

Well, we'll see.

Take care.

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玄 之 玄

I don't understand the repeated calls for commentaries or even just game records. There are hundreds of commentaries out there already, even in English. What more is a western pro going to be able to teach you that has not been said hundreds of times? What entertainment value is a western game going to give you that might equal, say, a ten-game match by Go Seigen, or a winning streak by Sumire?

From long experience I'm convinced that what amateurs would value above all that they don't already get is the chance to ask a very strong player questions such as: How do YOU count the endgame? How do YOU think AI has changed the game? How many hours a day do YOU study go? How do YOU discipline yourself to think before you move? And so on: questions that make human contact between pro and ama.

The forum? Easy. National go journals. Rather than point the finger at the pros themselves, I think the people who are central to the debate are the editors of go magazines (and, nowadays, videos), and those who appoint them. Over the years, western go magazines that I have seen have been journalistically abysmal, and most current videos just make the **** Sensurround. I haven't actually seen the EGF journal that is often advertised here, but from the contents lists I have a feeling they may be on the right lines, but nothing else comes close.

And there's no excuse nowadays. You have emails, so no costs; you have a vast array of reference material online; and you have tame western pros who speak your language, know where you're coming from, and (I guess) would happily type out a few replies for a measly $100 and a plug for their teaching classes. Forget AI. Put the humans in touch.

I don't think that NA pros don't care but the current reality is that they can't quit their day job or school and there is limited opportunity for them to play. Take a look at the longest running Go professional association. Most of their pros don't play matches as their day job. They run a dojo, play teaching games, referee at amateur tournaments, teach online, run a variety show, do makeup advertisements, and so on. So it's no surprise that NA Go pros have short lived careers. Most competitors have short lived careers.

If anything, it seems like there is a good amount of interest in the NAGF pros and that means we might see better promotion next year.