AGA priorities

Joaz Banbeck · **#61**

rubin427 wrote:

Bantari wrote:

But what will happen in the future?... I have no clue, but here is the guess I can venture: The board will meet, behind close doors...

Stop right there. I want a yes or no answer to this question:

Have you carefully read every document on this page:

http://www.usgo.org/board/ApprovedMinutes/

For those who want a local copy, the minutes are here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4779

Joaz Banbeck · **#62**

My proposal for top priority: Fix the snailmail mailbox problem.

from http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 453#p12453:
in reference to the May 2010 board minutes at
http://www.usgo.org/board/ApprovedMinut ... -10-05.pdf

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

This paragraph roused my curiosity:

Mary Laird has been checking the PO Box every
other week rather than every week as in the past,
saving a few thousand dollars. Okun asked
whether it would make sense to change the location
of the PO Box to somewhere it doesn’t take hours of
effort to check. Abramson said the older members
like to keep the consistent PO Box out of tradition.
Li said there is a premium forwarding service
offered by the USPS that costs about $20 per week
to forward mail wherever you want for an extended
period of time. Abramson said he will look into it.

Does this mean that we are currently paying someone thousands per year to check a PO box? In the middle of Manhattan?
Surely this could be done by a volunteer. There must be some SDK in NY who would be delighted to check the mailbox regularly in return for online lessons from some dan-level players.

To which Violence replied"

Violence wrote:

..
Yes, Joaz, the AGA pays someone thousands of dollars to check mail. It was one of Jie Li's complaints when he first entered. I like how we can pay Mrs. Laird to check mail, and yet we can't pay Maeda to come and teach Go.

vash3g · **#63**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

My proposal for top priority: Fix the snailmail mailbox problem.

from viewtopic.php?p=12453#p12453:
in reference to the May 2010 board minutes at
http://www.usgo.org/board/ApprovedMinut ... -10-05.pdf

http://usgo.org/org/index.html

Check the new address, they've moved to a new mailbox system that will be coming out in the next set of board minutes

daniel_the_smith · **#64**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

My proposal for top priority: Fix the snailmail mailbox problem.

You are not the only person who feels that way, and some who do are on the board; some progress has been made. The AGA switched to one of the virtual mailbox options; apparantly all that remains to be done is to change our address on the website. We will have the P.O. box checked less frequently, but will not completely eliminate it at this point. This was decided at the board meeting at congress, the minutes of which haven't yet been approved because there was some question as to whether they were correct in a couple of places.

gah, sniped!

gurujeet · **#65**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

My proposal for top priority: Fix the snailmail mailbox problem.

You are not the only person who feels that way, and some who do are on the board; some progress has been made. The AGA switched to one of the virtual mailbox options; apparantly all that remains to be done is to change our address on the website. We will have the P.O. box checked less frequently, but will not completely eliminate it at this point. This was decided at the board meeting at congress, the minutes of which haven't yet been approved because there was some question as to whether they were correct in a couple of places.

gah, sniped!

Actually, I feel this is just a big distraction. Will fixing the problem do anything towards expanding membership, supporting chapters, running tournaments, overhauling the website? Couldn't the time spent debating this to save a few bucks be better spent brainstorming on how to find sponsors and grow the financial base of the organization?

jts · **#66**

gurujeet wrote:

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

My proposal for top priority: Fix the snailmail mailbox problem.

You are not the only person who feels that way, and some who do are on the board; some progress has been made. The AGA switched to one of the virtual mailbox options; apparantly all that remains to be done is to change our address on the website. We will have the P.O. box checked less frequently, but will not completely eliminate it at this point. This was decided at the board meeting at congress, the minutes of which haven't yet been approved because there was some question as to whether they were correct in a couple of places.

gah, sniped!

Actually, I feel this is just a big distraction. Will fixing the problem do anything towards expanding membership, supporting chapters, running tournaments, overhauling the website? Couldn't the time spent debating this to save a few bucks be better spent brainstorming on how to find sponsors and grow the financial base of the organization?

If mailbox-checking is "Casual Labor" under administrative expensives in this budget the AGA spent 5,000 on that in FY10. That is equivalent to:

1,000% of total spending on international Go.
72% of total spending on the website.
50% of total spending on the E-Journal.
100% of the AGA subsidy to the Master's Tournament or the Redmond Cup
50% of the AGA subsidy for youth to attend Congress
105% of total spending on equipment.
100% of promotional activities, general

So to answer your question: fixing this problem would allow the AGA to spend twice as much on expanding membership, to fund an additional tournament, or spend 72% more on the website. This time could be spent brainstorming sponsors or some other voodoo fiscal solution, but alternatively (again, assuming that I've identified the right line item) they could also free up 6% of their FY2010 revenue by not paying someone to ride the subway for hours.

hyperpape · **#67**

I thought there were other things done under the heading of casual labor. But the mailbox thing really does sound like a big deal, and a virtual mailbox sounds like a good solution.

However, the idea that we can "just get an SDK volunteer" to do it in exchange for dan lessons seems goofy. What's in it for the dan level volunteers? Weren't we just talking about volunteers not feeling used? And checking the mail is something that needs to be done very reliably.

Yertle · **#68**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

... apparantly all that remains to be done is to change our address on the website.

FYI the address has been changed on the website.

daniel_the_smith · **#69**

gurujeet wrote:

Actually, I feel this is just a big distraction. Will fixing the problem do anything towards expanding membership, supporting chapters, running tournaments, overhauling the website? Couldn't the time spent debating this to save a few bucks be better spent brainstorming on how to find sponsors and grow the financial base of the organization?

I basically agree with you, this is peanuts compared to what the AGA is losing by failing to retain members, especially now that we've partially switched away. But compounding factors are that there is some ethical murkiness about who exactly is getting the funds (wife of a former board member), and that this is (I believe) the only person the AGA pays to do anything on an ongoing basis. I wasn't there, and don't know that anything unethical actually transpired (maybe this arrangement really was the best the organization could do whenever it was started), but it certainly looks shady from the outside.

etower366i2 · **#70**

This is not actually the only person being paid, but there are only a few people being paid for "casual labor" and the like, and we have been systematically reducing the amount that is spent on paying people. This is done through switching ti automated systems of various kinds. This is important because it is part of professionalizing and cleaning up the administration of the organization. This goes along with other efforts to make our administration more systematic, to keep better records and descriptions of tasks, to create (as Phil Waldron has repeatedly called for) a 5 year plan, and to essentially create an organization that can handle growth.

To be quite honest, the debate about the mailbox in the board meetings and emails may well have taken up less space than it already has on this forum. I say this to let you know that this has not been a distraction or a time suck.

Lisa

pwaldron · **#71**

jts wrote:

If mailbox-checking is "Casual Labor" under administrative expensives in this budget the AGA spent 5,000 on that in FY10. That is equivalent to:

If memory serves, casual labour included three main items. One was getting someone to check the mailbox. I recall that part (much?) of that subitem was paying for subway fares. Personally I have no trouble reimbursing people for out-of-pocket expenses, although moving to a virtual mail/mail forwarding system looks to be far superior and long overdue.

The second casual item labour was data entry and clerical services relating to membership. That is, the updates necessary to keep the membership database running when it was all done by hand. This isn't so relevant now that the membership database is moving online, although I'm sure some casual labour will be necessary.

The third item was related to the management of the AGA's inventory, i.e. shipping out go equipment etc. I think this cost was shared with the AGF since they stored stuff in the same area. This subitem has probably dwindled away since the AGA no longer maintains the same inventory activities as it used to.

Anyways, those are my memories about the casual labour line item. People further in the know should feel free to correct me.

jts · **#72**

pwaldron wrote:

If memory serves, casual labour included three main items. One was getting someone to check the mailbox. I recall that part (much?) of that subitem was paying for subway fares. Personally I have no trouble reimbursing people for out-of-pocket expenses, although moving to a virtual mail/mail forwarding system looks to be far superior and long overdue.

I'm sure you're right, but (i) there is a separate line-item for "tokens", which the minutes imply refers to subway tokens (although seriously, does any subway system still use tokens?) and (ii) the minutes mention saving "thousands of dollars" by checking the mail less frequently, which made me assume that the vast majority of casual labor was mailbox-checking.

redponey · **#73**

I've created a separate thread in order to not hijack this discussion, but I'm making an offer to help facilitate volunteers who want to work on projects:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4783

Bantari · **#74**

I am sorry if what I say is clumsy and does not come out the way I think.
I try to explain.

daniel_the_smith wrote:

I'd like to note that I really don't understand the criticism from [EDIT: apparantly I misunderstood Joaz's post. Sorry!] and Bantari: why do you seem to expect me to be the source of ideas?

I am not really sure if 'expect' is the right word here.
I would say (and said, i think) - this is what I would like to see.

As to Why? Good question.
This goes to the reason for existence of bodies like the AGA Board. And again, this is not what is, or what I expect, but what I would like to see. And I would like to see the board working WITH the members, not pumping the members for ideas, then for volunteers, then for donations, then for... I am not saying that this is how I see it happening, only this is what I would like not to see.

For example - if I was in charge of a company. Sure, every now and then I can have a meeting with my employees and ask them for ideas, but I should give some direction in which these ideas should go, channel it from my wider perspective, maybe give a few staring points, stuff like that. More likely - I would put some goals and then ask for ideas on how to accomplish these goals.
And every now and then I should also have ideas of my own.

And I am not talking here to you personally, I think you are doing a great job. Its more the idea of things rather than any specific execution or behavior.

daniel_the_smith wrote:

There's one of me and a ton of you. It would be arrogant of me to assume that I can come up with better ideas than all of you guys put together.

Agreed.
This is why I never said you should come up with ideas and then implement them without discussion or input.
Also - you are not really the entire board, so do not take it personally. I was not really addressing you but the situation as I see it.

As for you yourself... even if you are only one, there is still no reason you cannot come up with ideas. Each one of us is only one, and if we all thought like you, then nobody would ever have any ideas worth voicing. Or do you disagree.

Part of my point is that you, even though only one among equals, are a little more equal than many of us here... but only because of your proximity to what is going on in AGA. For this reason, I think your ideas might be at least as interesting as mine, possibly much more so. And things you propose, from your higher vantage point might be generally more appropriate and need than what I would say. Thus I would very much like to hear what ideas do YOU have.

Same goes for every board member, and for the board as a body.

daniel_the_smith wrote:

@bantari, It may sound bad at first blush to say that the board is setting aside time to talk about priorities. But it is actually a good thing; if you don't schedule time to talk about your goals/priorities, it will never happen because little stuff will come up and crowd it out. There is no shortage of stuff the board could spend its meetings talking about; adding this discussion ahead of other things is an admission that it is more important than other things. If you think the AGA needs to sort out its priorities, this should make you happy. If it appalls you that the AGA currently has no coherent set of goals, then by all means, be appalled--but it makes no sense to simultaneously criticize us for trying to fix that...

I understand that.
My point was more about not having anything to say about it other than 'we will talk'.
For example - has there been last years priorities, have they been met, in what percentage, and most importantly - what needs to be carried over into this year's priorities?
I mean - all this will influence the ideas we might have and their possible acceptance and/or dismissal. Also - such information might give much more direction to any discussion here and avoid time wastage... for example, if there already is an idea carried over from last year to implement an AGA blog, people will think about specifics on how best to accomplish that rather than generics of 'lets have a blog'.

As it was stated, my impression was that AGA did not have any ideas, did not have any prior priorities, and there is nothing that needs to be carried over. There is no projects the board members have already set their heats on, which we can think over and come up with ideas of execution.

In short - in my opinion, AGA should be in a more advanced state than 'lets throw any general ideas in the wind and see what we like'.
There should be some past to draw from when thinking about such questions.

Bantari · **#75**

rubin427 wrote:

Bantari wrote:

But what will happen in the future?... I have no clue, but here is the guess I can venture: The board will meet, behind close doors...

Stop right there. I want a yes or no answer to this question:

Have you carefully read every document on this page:

http://www.usgo.org/board/ApprovedMinutes/

Yes and no.
I have read some but not all of the minutes.

However - I remember from some time ago that the minutes were not being updated regularly. This is why I suggested somebody actually doing it as a job for AGA. Maybe there already is such position, I don't know. And maybe from now on the minutes will be always current. Great, I withdraw this point in such case.

My guess... give it a year or two, and lets see if this page is still maintained and the minutes current. The we talk again.

daniel_the_smith · **#76**

Quick response, perhaps more later.

Bantari wrote:

As it was stated, my impression was that AGA did not have any ideas, did not have any prior priorities, and there is nothing that needs to be carried over. There is no projects the board members have already set their heats on, which we can think over and come up with ideas of execution.

It appears to me that this is about 85-95% correct.

Bantari wrote:

In short - in my opinion, AGA should be in a more advanced state than 'lets throw any general ideas in the wind and see what we like'.

This is what I referred to when I said "if that astonishes you, then be astonished." I agree it should be in a more advanced state than it is. But it's not. Astonishment on your part won't change that.

Bantari · **#77**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Quick response, perhaps more later.

Bantari wrote:

As it was stated, my impression was that AGA did not have any ideas, did not have any prior priorities, and there is nothing that needs to be carried over. There is no projects the board members have already set their heats on, which we can think over and come up with ideas of execution.

It appears to me that this is about 85-95% correct.

Bantari wrote:

In short - in my opinion, AGA should be in a more advanced state than 'lets throw any general ideas in the wind and see what we like'.

This is what I referred to when I said "if that astonishes you, then be astonished." I agree it should be in a more advanced state than it is. But it's not. Astonishment on your part won't change that.

Lol.
In spite of the fact that whatever I do or say won't change anything - I can still be astonished.

And so my advice as to the priorities - take my astonishment as a sad lesson, and try to do things better in the future.
Because unless you first root out the reasons for such astonishment, no ideas will go very far, I think. Ideas are cheap, talk is cheap, and I am sure there were plenty of talk and plenty of ideas in the past. The hard part is to create a system, a body, and an environment in which the ideas can be turned into reality and thrive. And for that, you need to fundamentally change the way things are approached, not just gather a new bunch of ideas to maybe be half-way realized in some undefined future.

I think you are doing a tremendous job here, and I see some of the other board members speaking up. I assume more are reading. And this is a great start!

I guess this is exactly what i was trying to suggest in my previous posts.
No amount of ideas will do any good unless you first create an environment in which these ideas can be properly handled.

daniel_the_smith · **#78**

Bantari wrote:

The hard part is to create a system, a body, and an environment in which the ideas can be turned into reality and thrive.

I totally agree.

Bantari wrote:

As for you yourself... even if you are only one, there is still no reason you cannot come up with ideas. Each one of us is only one, and if we all thought like you, then nobody would ever have any ideas worth voicing. Or do you disagree.

Sure, I have added my own ideas into the list I sent the rest of the board, too, not just the ones I stole from all of you. :batman:

I guess my point was more that I can't expect to personally come up with the best idea. I see my role as finding the best possible ideas, and making them happen.

Bantari wrote:

Part of my point is that you, even though only one among equals, are a little more equal than many of us here... but only because of your proximity to what is going on in AGA. For this reason, I think your ideas might be at least as interesting as mine, possibly much more so. And things you propose, from your higher vantage point might be generally more appropriate and need than what I would say.

That kind of perspective takes time to develop. I will get there, but I'm not there yet. Bear with me.

rubin427 · **#79**

Bantari wrote:

Yes and no.
I have read some but not all of the minutes.

However - I remember from some time ago that the minutes were not being updated regularly. This is why I suggested somebody actually doing it as a job for AGA. Maybe there already is such position, I don't know. And maybe from now on the minutes will be always current. Great, I withdraw this point in such case.

My guess... give it a year or two, and lets see if this page is still maintained and the minutes current. The we talk again.

This is trivia I know. Towards the start of the year, it fell on the webmaster to post the meeting minutes. Towards the start of the year, there was no webmaster.

pwaldron · **#80**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

Sure, I have added my own ideas into the list I sent the rest of the board, too, not just the ones I stole from all of you. :batman:

I guess my point was more that I can't expect to personally come up with the best idea. I see my role as finding the best possible ideas, and making them happen.

Personally I think you're setting too high a goal. The AGA in its current state is dysfunctional--it is incapable of taking an idea (good, bad or the best) and pushing it forward to completion.

The usual response from the leadership is that they are constrained by the limited number of volunteers, but I have heard this excuse too many times. Any serious project that has real value is going to require a wide variety of skills beyond that of a single volunteer. The AGA does not seem to be capable of finding the multiple people necessary for a project and bringing them together. This is an operational issue, and the responsibility falls squarely with the president and the volunteer coordinator. This has to be fixed if the AGA is to progress.

Any serious project will also require decision making at the top level of the organization, i.e., the board. The board seems incapable of reaching timely decisions, but will not delegate the decision making authority. Board decisions don't stick--a policy is edited, reversed and deleted largely by whim. It leaves volunteers who need decisions initially left drifting and later having their work rendered obsolete by new directions.

This is a time for the board and the president to step up. Pick an idea--a good one, but short--and practice getting the organizational aspects down. If you can't figure it out then we have another decade of the same AGA until a new generation of volunteers comes along.

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