An e-mail to admin concerning "Herod"

[Bonobo]

I didn't read anything about jokes not allowed (actually it wasn't a joke, it was more a humorous remark).

You don’t seem to get the point that calling women “girls” is sexist, no matter how funny you believe your remarks to be.

The player in question is a girl not a woman.

Oh. OK, so I’ve been too quick, too judicial.

Please accept my apology.

[Bill Spight]

Skydyr indicated that it would be difficult for the admin to judge the appropriateness of the remarks without knowing the people involved. Boidhre did not disagree, but said that the admin could not be expected to know "what can and cannot be said." I am assuming that they are both right. In that case, my opinion remains the same. If you don't know the facts of the situation, find out.

More, speaking from experience, if a conversation is fast moving you don't have the time to figure out all the facts of the situation. Sometimes you have to make calls based on just the text in front of you and text doesn't convey tone well.

That's why we have emoticons.

[Pippen]

I think the rules are way too strict but given the rules and the general methodology of the admins on there from what I've seen, your ban was consistent.

I could'nt agree more.

[Boidhre]

Skydyr indicated that it would be difficult for the admin to judge the appropriateness of the remarks without knowing the people involved. Boidhre did not disagree, but said that the admin could not be expected to know "what can and cannot be said." I am assuming that they are both right. In that case, my opinion remains the same. If you don't know the facts of the situation, find out.

More, speaking from experience, if a conversation is fast moving you don't have the time to figure out all the facts of the situation. Sometimes you have to make calls based on just the text in front of you and text doesn't convey tone well.

That's why we have emoticons.

So I can say something really offensive, slap ^^ or whatever on it and it's ok?

[Pippen]

So I can say something really offensive, slap ^^ or whatever on it and it's ok?

Yes, because usually it signals that you do not mean what you just said seriously, but in another more peaceful sense. That is how I interpret it. Of course there might be rare cases when it doesn't apply.

[yoyoma]

I think the question is it offensive isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that sort of comment will inevitably derail the kibitz topic from being about the game itself, similar to the reason politics is specifically called out as off-topic.

[jts]

So I can say something really offensive, slap ^^ or whatever on it and it's ok?

Yes, because usually it signals that you do not mean what you just said seriously, but in another more peaceful sense. That is how I interpret it. Of course there might be rare cases when it doesn't apply.

Well, I'll bet you make friends easily! ^^

[Boidhre]

So I can say something really offensive, slap ^^ or whatever on it and it's ok?

Yes, because usually it signals that you do not mean what you just said seriously, but in another more peaceful sense. That is how I interpret it. Of course there might be rare cases when it doesn't apply.

The issue is (and people do do this) that I can use it to take a dig at you by saying something particularly personal about you and then tack a smiley onto it. The smiley says I'm joking but am I?

[Bill Spight]

text doesn't convey tone well.

That's why we have emoticons.

So I can say something really offensive, slap ^^ or whatever on it and it's ok?

No more than if you said it with a smile. It can even make it worse.

[Bantari]

Might be just me, but I think the best solution is simply to avoid saying offensive things.
Then you do not have to worry about bans, emoticons, smiles, context, or whatever.
Its not such a hard concept, I think.
Works well in real life.

PS>
I really do not get this overwhelming need for people to say offensive things online. And then try to find a way to explain it away as not so offensive after all, because this or that... Nothing wrong with just being polite whatever the server policies.

I mean... everybody sometimes says something silly (don't I know it, of all people), but when caught - just apologize and try to get smarter in the future. Pretending you are a victim, writing complaints, venting on forums - this all just adds to the perception of you being a douche. Just a general remark, not directed at anybody specifically.

And not really a comment on the quality/attitudes of KGS admins.
That's another story...

[Koroviev]

INTERNETS!

[Kirby]

Might be just me, but I think the best solution is simply to avoid saying offensive things.
Then you do not have to worry about bans, emoticons, smiles, context, or whatever.
Its not such a hard concept, I think.
Works well in real life.

Maybe in theory, but in reality, a number of bans are not objective and depend on the discretion of the admin. I was once banned on KGS for writing in Japanese in the English game room. It was quite some time ago, and I don't believe that it was part of any terms of service or anything. I had no idea that I was doing something wrong.

Later when I complained about it, I was told that it was obvious since the name of the room is the "English" game room. Well, it wasn't obvious to me. The "English Game Room" is the primary "room" on the server, and I didn't know that the title implied that non-English words couldn't be spoken. But in another situation with a different admin, it may have been OK.

Anyway, my point is, of course it's probably a good idea to try to "be nice", but sometimes even if you think you're "being nice", the admin might not agree and you get banned.

And yeah, KGS has the right to ban whoever they want whenever they want... Just like I have the right to still remember after many years the incident that I've described here, while still holding some resentment for it.

I guess that's life.

[Bantari]

Might be just me, but I think the best solution is simply to avoid saying offensive things.
Then you do not have to worry about bans, emoticons, smiles, context, or whatever.
Its not such a hard concept, I think.
Works well in real life.

Maybe in theory, but in reality, a number of bans are not objective and depend on the discretion of the admin. I was once banned on KGS for writing in Japanese in the English game room. It was quite some time ago, and I don't believe that it was part of any terms of service or anything. I had no idea that I was doing something wrong.

Later when I complained about it, I was told that it was obvious since the name of the room is the "English" game room. Well, it wasn't obvious to me. The "English Game Room" is the primary "room" on the server, and I didn't know that the title implied that non-English words couldn't be spoken. But in another situation with a different admin, it may have been OK.

Anyway, my point is, of course it's probably a good idea to try to "be nice", but sometimes even if you think you're "being nice", the admin might not agree and you get banned.

And yeah, KGS has the right to ban whoever they want whenever they want... Just like I have the right to still remember after many years the incident that I've described here, while still holding some resentment for it.

I guess that's life.

All true, but not what I meant.
I see two facets of the situation here:
1. Players who feel the need to be rude, and
2. Admins who need to ban people.
My remarks from the previous post were to #1 only.

About what you say:
True, sometimes people try to 'be nice' and get booted still. Can't be helped, just like sometimes people are rude and no ban happens. I witnessed both many times... and to be honest, the rudeness without punishment happens much more often than unjust bans. I do not think any of that is server-specific... more like human-specific.

From your tone, once could have the impression that KGS keeps banning people left and right, for the slightest of missteps, or even outright unjust, on their whim. I have been playing there for many years, and I do not see it like that. Sure, every now and then somebody gets banned without good reason and holds a grudge. I know, happened to me as well... But overall, I think the server we have now are all pretty decent in that respect, all things considering. Even IGS - and some of you will know my history with it and understand that its not easy for me to say that.

Of course, when there is an admin who has a verifiable history of overreacting, then this should be dealt with, as it often is here, but not so often by wms... sad. I am not sure what to do about it other than being careful around such admins. On any server. That's pretty much all I have to say about this... for now.

[Phelan]

Pippen, you said you had made 2-3 remarks like the example you posted. Did the admin inform you of the rules against sexist language and give you a warning before the ban? Had you been warned on other occasions for inappropriate language or breaking other rules? Was this your first KGS offence? Would we get a different story from the admin?

No, I was not informed or warned and honestly it'd be just not practical to inform or warn people as well as inquiring the sitation like Bill Spight suggested. After all it's not robbery here, just some remarks among thousands of remarks.... I think it was my 2nd KGS offense (I am at KGS since 2003). I can't remember what the first one was about, but it could be that I talked about things unrelated to go in an open chat.

@warrior: My comment was definitely aiming at females not able to do what men can do. The typical macho attitude, but wrapped as an humorous remark like if you see a women doing something good/bad and you teasing?!? her resp. the community a bit about her sex. As a real sexist comment I'd have considering the following: Wow, this girl can really think well and that's something since we all know that women are not there for thinking, but for different stuff...am I right guys, hahaha?

[Amelia]

Phelan... thank you

After a long time spent using pseudos that gave no specific clue on my gender, I'd decided a couple a months ago to start using a feminine pseudo so people would stop just assuming I'm a guy. Well, all I'm telling is, at the moment I'm switching accounts on KGS. It sucks (kinda feels like putting a bag on my head), but I prefer to have people not know I'm female. For twenty perfectly nice people, there is always one to spoil your day. But I'm getting off topic, I just wanted to say: I found Pippen's remark offensive. Not funny, with or without emoticons, just offensive. One should keep for pets that kind of condescending humor.