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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #61 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:21 am 
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Ok, guys. A challenge window is done for a regular games. I'm working on a game itself, and i need your opinion. Should "score estimate" and "game analyze" be disabled during the game, or there is nothing bad if player will be avaliable to use this stuff during the match?
PS: In my own opinion, there is nothing bad in it

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #62 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:43 am 
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I feel strongly that it should not be possible to run a score estimator or analyze the game in progress while playing.


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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #63 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:07 am 
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I vote to have score estimate and game analyze available.

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #64 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:35 pm 
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I'm strongly against the use of score estimator and game analytics during the game, too. I think it's okay for turn-based games, but live games should be free of that.

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #65 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:55 pm 
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I got your point guys, but you can't stop ppl from using SE and GA during the game, anyone can use guest account for this stuff in original client. So why do not let use it in the normal way?

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #66 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:35 pm 
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KOCMOHABT wrote:
Should "score estimate" and "game analyze" be disabled during the game, or there is nothing bad if player will be avaliable to use this stuff during the match?


Considering some players will be using this (or other third party clients) and others will be using the official client, I think these features should be disabled for both players (unless they both can make use of them; ie, both players are using your client, if you can actually determine that).

Otherwise it's an unfair advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #67 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:50 am 
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KOCMOHABT, i agree with you, if they want to cheat, they will cheat. So you can allow this i think.

Even if i'm against SE and game analysis, they can use it whenever they want (Guest, like you said). So you don't really need to forbid it.

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #68 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:18 am 
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I think there is a large difference between

  • This behavior is disabled (as it is in the current KGS client), obviously for actual reasons, but if you are tricky of course you can find ways to get around it, and
  • This behavior is explicitly available in the client.

I assume that KGS assumes using the score estimator to be cheating, otherwise it wouldn't be disabled (it's more work to disable it than to keep it enabled). Given that, I don't really understand the "People can find a way to cheat no matter what, so we might as well explicitly add a convenient cheat button" philosophy.

Well, I've given my opinion twice already, which is probably once too many. :) Maybe I'll start a separate thread.


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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #69 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:23 am 
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Just because it was disabled in CGoban doesn't make it "cheat". You can use Score Estimate during your matches on Tygem for example, and they don't call it "cheat". Score estimate is enabled on OGS also, but Game Analyze - is an option, wich one user can disable in his own challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #70 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:59 am 
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Here's my pros/cons list for this issue.

Pros
1) Score estimate would help greatly for newer players who can't count well and end up continuing games they know they've lost. This would help ease people into the game. This is the pro. There is a way to get this pro without upsetting the whole community; see 2 below.

Cons
1) Original KGS client doesn't allow it. Will GoUniverse have universal approval by the KGS community as a whole if it allows for something that the original KGS client doesn't? You want to support the community, not push for features that half of it will be against. That half will leave.

On a similar note, you could introduce this as a feature that people can only get on GoUniverse, but some people will see this as an agenda on your end to get people to abandon the original KGS client and will be put off by it.

2) Ideally, KGS should have had a policy where up until some set rank (10k? 5k? 1d?), people could use the score estimator in games. It doesn't, unfortunately, and so we are stuck with it. You might still be able to implement this in GoUniverse.

3) Yes, people could have a guest account and cheat, but it is pretty obvious to the other player when this happens, especially when you are not at the top and people don't watch your games. That type of player would end up on my block list.


Just my thoughts on the topic.

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Post #71 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:31 am 
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I vote for Disabling of SE by default during a game.

If you do allow it during a game, it should be like Undo --
you must request to use SE from your opponent,
so your opponent is notified, and it is your opponent who gives you the permission to use SE during a game,
and every time you want to use SE during a game,
you have to make a new request, just like each Undo request.
Also, implement the same button as Undo:
"No more SE for the rest of this game."

( It is also your opponent who can add time to your clock, not yourself. )

Alternately ( or in addition ), you can add an option in the Custom Game window:
SE Disabled [x] -- so both players agree before the game whether to allow SE during this game.
( This option has been available for years on some Chinese/Korean clients. )

This seems very fair.

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #72 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:07 am 
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I can't do that, because all of that wouldn't work in original client.

Ok, guys, i'm not going to swim against the tide, so SE and GA would be unavailable in a match. It's rly sad, because i don't see anything bad if my opponent would use any of this. Nowadays anyone can use 7d bot in a game and you will never knew it. So it seems strange for me to do not let ppl use at least SE. In my opinion if game in the internet is fun for you then you shouldn't care about such things like whether your opponent use SE and GA or not, but if you are playing in the internet with a studying purpose then SE can let you improve your judgment skills and your skill of choosing a game direction.

I know that i'm not alone with my opinion because Tygem/OGS/WBaduk do let players use SE during their games. But whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #73 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:34 am 
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Just realized this thread, and I have to say that your work is awesome, KOCMOHABT. I already like it better than the java client, with the exception that I cannot play games :-)

Sounds like you're already working on this, which is great. Once the functionality to play games is stable and released, I'll definitely consider using this is as my go-to KGS client :-)

Great work :tmbup:

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #74 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:35 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Just realized this thread, and I have to say that your work is awesome, KOCMOHABT. I already like it better than the java client, with the exception that I cannot play games :-)

Sounds like you're already working on this, which is great. Once the functionality to play games is stable and released, I'll definitely consider using this is as my go-to KGS client :-)

Great work :tmbup:


I've already played several games through a new client :). You can move, pass, undo, resign, but can't count scores. So it will be done rly soon. ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #75 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:44 am 
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KOCMOHABT wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Just realized this thread, and I have to say that your work is awesome, KOCMOHABT. I already like it better than the java client, with the exception that I cannot play games :-)

Sounds like you're already working on this, which is great. Once the functionality to play games is stable and released, I'll definitely consider using this is as my go-to KGS client :-)

Great work :tmbup:


I've already played several games through a new client :). You can move, pass, undo, resign, but can't count scores. So it will be done rly soon. ;-)


Also just realized that you might be the same person that made "Web Go Board", which I already use on a regular basis. Very awesome. Thank you for your contributions.

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #76 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:29 pm 
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I too am excited for this client. Thanks for all the work you've done; it's looking great! :D

As for the score estimator, I'm also a fan of leaving it out. However, even though that's my preference, it's important to realize that the folks that post on this forum are not a representative sample of the go playing population. I suspect you might find a different answer if you could poll everyone who plays on KGS.

Here are a few reasons why I don't want it, for what it's worth.
  • As you said, other servers have it. I like some of the unique aspects of the KGS community, which is one of the reasons I generally play there. Having the score estimator wouldn't keep me away, though.
  • I find the score estimator to be a problem for very weak players. They can't understand why "their" territory gets taken away during later play. Conversely, seeing a region marked as belonging to the other opponent can be enough to discourage play in that area for meek players.
  • If it's one button click away, I'm afraid I will be considered rude if I continue playing when the estimator says I'm far behind. Right now I have my inability to count quickly as a solid excuse. ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #77 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:13 am 
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Ok guys. Functionality of playing a regular games (1 vs 1) were fully implemented. So now you can start own challenge, accept other challenge/ make moves/undo/resign/count scores. I've played several games already and everything was ok. From this moment i'll take one week to find bugs and to do stuff more beautiful. So in one week you will be able to play your own games through a new client. Cheers :D

PS: Score counting panel will be like in OGS (in my opinion it's much better than in KGS), i hope you will like it.


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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #78 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:23 am 
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Hot version (1.3.0)

- From now you can play free/ranked/teaching games. (hated options "score estimate" and "game analyze" were disabled in your own games)
- Some improvements and bug fix.

PS: Pls feel free to tell your feelings and ideas about what is need to be improved and how to do it's more comfortable to play your own games.
Cheers ;-)


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Post #79 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:42 am 
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http://gou.coildomain.com -- is this the current version ?
If not, which is the correct URL to test the latest version ?

With the above URL, on iOS, still cannot even watch any games --
maybe I'm missing something ?

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 Post subject: Re: GoUniverse (New KGS client)
Post #80 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:44 am 
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Your link above is not my official version. It's some guy got a random build of my code and store it on his own server.

My official version is only as a Chrome-extension:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... ldbkhhj?hl


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