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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #41 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:29 am 
Oza
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KOCMOHABT wrote:
You didn't get my point of view. I'll try to describe:

1. Good feature: Letting people to check extended opponent profile, where he can check how often user plays with lower than him and how often user plays with higher level that him
2. Bad feaure: Mark player with some bad bad bad bad bad bad bad mark. Like he is doing something wrong, or he is sooooo bad.


You are exaggerating. It's just a tilde, and many people have no idea what it means. Let me try again the purpose of the tilde: It indicates that the user exhibits a tendency not to play weaker players. As explained in the kgs faq, if everyone did this, it would be hard for weaker players to improve, so it is discouraged on the server. If people don't like having it, they can play some weaker players to make it go away, or they can play elsewhere. Your suggestion that people concerned about the go community check the user archive does not have the effect of discouraging people from only playing stronger players. I understand that you are among the people who don't like the tilde, but I am a bit surprised that you feel that you have the right to change the server policy by hiding the feature on your client.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #42 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:35 am 
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tapir wrote:
OGS limits my choice of opponent
I think that is a fantastic feature. When creating the game invite you can specify the range of ranks you're willing to play and no one else can even click on your game. There is no need to put "6-8k ranked, no ?" and the likes into the game description that way.


As for the "?", maybe it would be enough to tweak KGS's ranking algorithm so that it doesn't take games against "?" marked people into account (except when both players are "?").

What happens is:
- 4k player is new, gets "?" no one plays them (more on that why)
- they manage to play some ranked games against 12k bots, now they are "10k?"
- genuine 8k is willing to play, "10k?" asks for no handicap because well, they're 4k and also so that their rank rise faster
- of course 8k loses (if the "10k?" did take the HC then it was probably an irritating game too)
- "10k?" is now "8k?", 8k lost to 10k without HC, thus they're bumped down to 9k
- perfectly understandable why people don't like to play "?"-s...

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #43 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:47 am 
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...or they can play elsewhere...


You just confirm why there are so few games on the KGS. Cool policy, but few players.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #44 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:27 am 
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peti29 wrote:
As for the "?", maybe it would be enough to tweak KGS's ranking algorithm so that it doesn't take games against "?" marked people into account (except when both players are "?").

What happens is:
- 4k player is new, gets "?" no one plays them (more on that why)
- they manage to play some ranked games against 12k bots, now they are "10k?"
- genuine 8k is willing to play, "10k?" asks for no handicap because well, they're 4k and also so that their rank rise faster
- of course 8k loses (if the "10k?" did take the HC then it was probably an irritating game too)
- "10k?" is now "8k?", 8k lost to 10k without HC, thus they're bumped down to 9k
- perfectly understandable why people don't like to play "?"-s...


Literally every other server does this too. KGS is actually better than all of them, because once the 4k rises to his true rank, the 8k's rank will go back up.

I agree with KOCMOHABT, it would be better just to hide the question mark like every other server does.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #45 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:30 am 
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for the ? mark i agree, not the ~.
i got only one times the ~ mark, one because i was playing only stronger players because i comment a lot of game at this time.
i just play some games against weaker players and it disapear, its really not a problem.
And a month where i decided to train only sanrensei i didnt even got the ~.

You say bad feature is to mark such players.
i say for me bad feature is i have to lose time to check a profile to verify that.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #46 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:44 am 
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daal wrote:
Let me try again the purpose of the tilde: It indicates that the user exhibits a tendency not to play weaker players. As explained in the kgs faq, if everyone did this, it would be hard for weaker players to improve, so it is discouraged on the server.


It's impossible for everyone to do this, because in order to get a tilde, the guys playing you have to be willing to play weaker players :-)

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #47 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:29 am 
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I have to say that ? is one of the major reasons I don't play many games on kgs. It's so hard to get a game when I have the question mark, and even if I got rid of it once, a few months later when I'm back it's there again :sad:


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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #48 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:51 am 
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gamesorry wrote:
I have to say that ? is one of the major reasons I don't play many games on kgs. It's so hard to get a game when I have the question mark, and even if I got rid of it once, a few months later when I'm back it's there again :sad:


I agree that their policy of having accounts "time-out" seems like it doesn't work too well. I guess I may be one of the few people who don't avoid people at my rank with a "?". I've played a few. I think many of them were people who were just playing elsewhere for a few months and got demoted. The net result is that they usually beat me badly and seemed to be "under-ranked". But this is just my impression. I never checked back to see if they ended up with a higher non-"?" rank. (And everyone who beats me seems stronger than I am ;-)

I think the practical issue is that the ranking formula only considers the games played in the last 180 days. So, if some one hasn't played in that period, they don't have a rank? It seems like a better solution would be to initially assign the returning player their last rank (without a "?") but treat the player like a new player in the ratings formula so that their rank adjusts quickly up or down until they have enough games for a reliable estimate.


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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #49 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:44 pm 
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I like this discussion. I understand the intent behind all of the marks and so on. I do not even disagree with any of them. However, this is a good time to look at their effect in practice and try to improve on that. I haven't played actively online in a number of years. My server of choice would continue to be KGS, except for the difficulty of starting out again with that '?'. I like the idea of just leaving the last rank in place but 'behind the curtain' treat it as a newbie '?' rank. The KGS rating system adjusts fast enough for players with only a few games that the effect will be minor.

The other unfortunate effect of the '?' was to relegate '?' players to the bottom of the 'sort by rank' list. Old timers will recall that this was not true initially. Originally the '?'s were sorted directly into the list according to their rank. After some time (a couple of years?) this was changed to put all the '?'s together below the firm ranks.

As for the '~', just turn it around. Stop being so negative! Achieve the same distinction by giving a 'hero' badge to those who play more games with weaker players instead. (Doesn't DGS have something like this these days?) If you really are into the idea, then you can restrict yourself to only games as white against heroes.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #50 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Hero idea is really creative, and I like it. Players shouldn't be punished for wanting to play stronger players- who doesn't?

But rewarding people that teach weaker players is a great incentive.

I don't know why this wasn't thought of before. Great idea.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #51 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:51 pm 
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I agree with Dave: rewarding positive behavior instead of shaming behavior perceived as negative could have a significant positive impact on the server culture.

As a side note, I've gotten a ~ once. I went through a (relatively short) phase where I played the majority of my games against bots, and the bots that were available were all a little higher ranked than me. I sought out games against lower ranked players, so it didn't stick around long. I don't pay much attention to the tilde when looking for a game, except that I've come to expect those with the tilde who are around my rank might be more likely to refuse a game.


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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #52 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:11 pm 
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In reality the ~ have no bad effect.
Ans as he concern a very little minority,seems no sense to give a hero badge to 95% of user or more

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #53 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Fenring wrote:
In reality the ~ have no bad effect.
Ans as he concern a very little minority,seems no sense to give a hero badge to 95% of user or more


I viewed it as a higher percentage than 95%. The point of a reward is not to give it to everybody - it's to award people that take more-than-usual time to teach weaker players.

That's the point of the system, isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #54 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:34 am 
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BlindGroup wrote:
I think the practical issue is that the ranking formula only considers the games played in the last 180 days. So, if some one hasn't played in that period, they don't have a rank? It seems like a better solution would be to initially assign the returning player their last rank (without a "?") but treat the player like a new player in the ratings formula so that their rank adjusts quickly up or down until they have enough games for a reliable estimate.


It seems to me that the best solution will be the following: if the user stopped playing on the server and it passed six months, then to calculate his rating it is need to use his last 20 rated games no matter how long ago they were (therefore, his games archive will have at least 20 rated games all of the time, exception is a new account). In this case there is no need to change the formula for calculating the rating in general and the system as a whole, and the user will never get "?" If he stops playing for a while. And it will be comfortable for him to return on the server.


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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #55 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:42 am 
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KOCMOHABT wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
I think the practical issue is that the ranking formula only considers the games played in the last 180 days. So, if some one hasn't played in that period, they don't have a rank? It seems like a better solution would be to initially assign the returning player their last rank (without a "?") but treat the player like a new player in the ratings formula so that their rank adjusts quickly up or down until they have enough games for a reliable estimate.


It seems to me that the best solution will be the following: if the user stopped playing on the server and it passed six months, then to calculate his rating it is need to use his last 20 rated games no matter how long ago they were (therefore, his games archive will have at least 20 rated games all of the time, exception is a new account). In this case there is no need to change the formula for calculating the rating in general and the system as a whole, and the user will never get "?" If he stops playing for a while. And it will be comfortable for him to return on the server.


I think this is not appropriate for the KGS rating system. AFAIK it is not just that the system only uses the games from the last 180 days, it also has the games' weights decay throughout that period. It might be possible to keep the last win and the last loss at the minimum weight and use them together with new results to calculate a new rating. However, we would want the new results to quickly dominate the rating calculation so as soon as a player has at least one (?) new win and one (?) new loss the out of date games could be dropped. KGS should get some technical advice from WMS on that.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #56 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:49 am 
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Fenring wrote:
In reality the ~ have no bad effect.
Ans as he concern a very little minority,seems no sense to give a hero badge to 95% of user or more

If the qualification level for heroes is the same as that for villains (~), there should not be many more heroes singled out than the existing villains. If they switched from badging one to the other and we suddenly see a large number of heroes, it might indicate how many people took their villainy and moved to another server.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #57 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:24 am 
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Instead of letting the server decide, how about letting the user decide?

Give the user some settings to automatically mark players as heroes/villains depending on what that user finds important in an opponent (plays weaker/stronger players, grants/requests undos, talks a lot in the chat, resigns often/never, willing to review games afterwards, has "sai" in their username, whatever tickles your fancy)


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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #58 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:54 am 
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ez4u wrote:
Fenring wrote:
In reality the ~ have no bad effect.
Ans as he concern a very little minority,seems no sense to give a hero badge to 95% of user or more

If the qualification level for heroes is the same as that for villains (~), there should not be many more heroes singled out than the existing villains. If they switched from badging one to the other and we suddenly see a large number of heroes, it might indicate how many people took their villainy and moved to another server.

i dont understand the logic of your whole post.
especially "villainy" or "heros" for ~ mark, the mark is just an objective information you give to KGS users.~ is not a punition,just an information.
And in this case, play only with weakers players is as bad, for find a match, than play not enough against weaker player,it just inverse the problem.
i really dont understand the problem: the ~ is hard to obtain(even in one month training sanrensei i didnt have, i just had when i play ranked only against stronger and pedagogic against weaker), easy to leave.
i have the feeling its just some people who have ~ ,who feel guilty to have this one,but in reality they feel guilty for their behavior,no?
i really dont understand.
When i had the ~, i know why and it was never a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #59 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:52 am 
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Fenring wrote:
When i had the ~, i know why and it was never a problem.


To be clear, why do you want to keep ~ around?

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 Post subject: Re: The KGS is dead, long live the KGS ?
Post #60 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Fenring wrote:
the mark is just an objective information you give to KGS users.~ is not a punition,just an information.


This may be true in an ideal world, but it's not true in practice. When the developers choose what information to display in a prominent position they are implicitly assigning a value judgment to that piece of information. At the very least, that information is considered important enough to report. Even if some people treat the tilde as a simple data point, many in the community will automatically conform to the value judgment offered by the developers. Conformity and shared values are an inescapable property of human communities.


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