An e-mail to admin concerning "Herod"

mw42 · #1

I just sent the following message to admin@gokgs.com

Quote:

I have been banned twice in three (or maybe four) days by an admin named Herod and, additionally, warned once. I will briefly describe these incidents:

1. I commented during a game "the power of christ compelled black to take those stones." This is simply a popular movie reference and was made because the resulting black shape was a cross. He PMs me with "you're on notice" for this very innocent comment. I replied "blah blah don't bother me" as I felt his warning was completely uncalled for. A little later I was banned for making "disrespectful comments." I'm not sure if my first or second comment earned the ban, but both were very mild. Was a 24 hour ban really necessary?

2. I was observing a a handicap game involving an 8 dan. The 8d played some questionable moves and I commented "w is not 8d." The account is relatively new, and, though the rank was solid, it is reasonable to assume that white's rank wasn't settled yet (this is a defense for the rationale of my comment even though I don't think it should be necessary). For this comment I was warned in chat in bold "do not be disrespectful to the players." This warning was ridiculous as several observers commented. Notably, Freddo asked "since when are we not allowed to comment on a player's strength?" What I took from this warning is that Herod has some other issue with me and was just harassing me.

3. Just a couple of minutes ago I was watching a game with a player ranked [5d?] (gingko2). I looked at his rank graph and saw that he was a fairly stable 1 dan. So I commented "b is not 5d" and "he is 1d." The user superPal had a few exchanges concerning his rank and then Herod warned not to discuss ranks! I then commented (perhaps unwisely, but annoyed) "not this herod troll, again." A little later I was banned. The ban message was "do not be disrespectful to the players." Therefore, I assume I was banned for saying the black player was 1d (a conclusion based off his rank graph).

I have had issues with the admins in the past. I have PMed them and complained, and I have been banned before. Lately, I have just ignored them and accepted that I have the unfortunate knack for ticking them off. This, however, is too much to ignore. All three of these incidents show that Herod is using his mod powers to bully me and possibly other users.

Has anyone else had any issues with this admin?

Bill Spight · #2

I think that Mary and Joseph moved to a different server.

PaperTiger · #3

mw42 wrote:

Has anyone else had any issues with this admin?

I noticed just the other day that he was quick to end a trivial conversation in the main room, a particular thread a few lines long that was petering out anyways. Seems like another overly-sensitive, trigger-happy admin in the making. KGS used to have a reputation of being "friendly", but for a long time now it's often very cold.

Uberdude · #4

He helped me with a troublesome user, but I have also noticed his draconian attitude to friendly conversation.

tchan001 · #5

Notice the "rod" part of Herod. Probably not someone who would use it sparingly.

badukJr · #6

The admins that generate the most complaints on KGS hardly ever play go. I don't think they even understand whats happening in a game anymore.

BigDoug · #7

badukJr wrote:

The admins that generate the most complaints on KGS hardly ever play go. I don't think they even understand whats happening in a game anymore.

Several admins (myself included) have playing accounts which are quite separate from their admin accounts. Using these playing accounts, we can play our games without being interrupted to provide admin services (e.g., room approval, advice on how to deal with escapers).

Phelan · #8

mw42 wrote:

I just sent the following message to admin@gokgs.com

Quote:

I have been banned twice in three (or maybe four) days by an admin named Herod and, additionally, warned once. I will briefly describe these incidents:

1. I commented during a game "the power of christ compelled black to take those stones." This is simply a popular movie reference and was made because the resulting black shape was a cross. He PMs me with "you're on notice" for this very innocent comment.

Up to here, you're being reasonable. He might have felt touchy with religion? Dunno. It doesn'treally matter.

mw42 wrote:

Quote:

I replied "blah blah don't bother me" as I felt his warning was completely uncalled for. A little later I was banned for making "disrespectful comments." I'm not sure if my first or second comment earned the ban, but both were very mild. Was a 24 hour ban really necessary?

But this is no way to address another person doing their job, much less an admin at a server you usually go to. Would you address a policeman that stopped you in the same fashion?

The rest does sound like he had a beef against you, yes. But you first colored his perception. Just sayin'.

Redundant · #9

If a policeman stopped me without probable cause, I'd be rather curt with him too. Not that KGS admins have the same responsibility for probable cause, but I didn't bring up the analogy.

Phelan · **#10**

Redundant wrote:

If a policeman stopped me without probable cause, I'd be rather curt with him too. Not that KGS admins have the same responsibility for probable cause, but I didn't bring up the analogy.

Maybe the analogy fails, then. My point was that explaining the joke might have been a better course of action than saying "don't bother me". If "Herod" continued the attitude then, there was nothing to do, but dismissing him like that is not something that I'd do.

Amelia · **#11**

Redundant wrote:

If a policeman stopped me without probable cause, I'd be rather curt with him too. Not that KGS admins have the same responsibility for probable cause, but I didn't bring up the analogy.

If you do that you might just find out exactly how little sense of humor most policemen have.
The correct self preserving move when a policeman wants something from you is to answer him politely and make clear that there is a misunderstanding.
If you show disrespect, on most countries that alone is enough reason to fine you. Also it will piss off someone who has the means to make your day a difficult one.

mw42 · **#12**

Well, I received the expected response from BigDoug. Basically, he agrees with Herod (except in the second case, which he ignored).

Phelan wrote:

Maybe the analogy fails, then. My point was that explaining the joke might have been a better course of action than saying "don't bother me". If "Herod" continued the attitude then, there was nothing to do, but dismissing him like that is not something that I'd do.

I've had issues with KGS admins before. I perceived Herod's warning as an insult so I was rude in kind. I'm not going to be nice to someone trying to unjustly pressure me even if he is operating in some kind of official capacity. "You're on notice" is rude. Many other admins might have said "please, don't make religious references." Even though calling "the power of christ compels you" a religious reference is absurd, I wouldn't have been rude to an admin if warned in such a manner.

Pippen · **#13**

This shows way laws and rules are so important. Have some specific rules about bans and there's no problem. For instance: "Anyone who disrespects other people on KGS can be ...." Under this rule the "herod troll" was a violation while the other stuff was not if it was just stated that someone doesn't believe some other player is a 8d according to his play (with no offensive words or attitude).

hyperpape · **#14**

Redundant wrote:

If a policeman stopped me without probable cause, I'd be rather curt with him too.

Like Amelia says, this is a very bad idea. To avoid derailing the thread with a political discussion, I'll offer to private message you some eye-opening things.

Phelan · **#15**

mw42 wrote:

Well, I received the expected response from BigDoug. Basically, he agrees with Herod (except in the second case, which he ignored).

Phelan wrote:

Maybe the analogy fails, then. My point was that explaining the joke might have been a better course of action than saying "don't bother me". If "Herod" continued the attitude then, there was nothing to do, but dismissing him like that is not something that I'd do.

I've had issues with KGS admins before. I perceived Herod's warning as an insult so I was rude in kind. I'm not going to be nice to someone trying to unjustly pressure me even if he is operating in some kind of official capacity. "You're on notice" is rude. Many other admins might have said "please, don't make religious references." Even though calling "the power of christ compels you" a religious reference is absurd, I wouldn't have been rude to an admin if warned in such a manner.

Please note that references are not universal, and I have no idea what movie you are referring to.

I would have thought of it as a joke, though.

And if you're not going to be nice to an admin even on the first contact, then don't blame them when they're not nice back.
I'd like to know why you perceive "You're on notice" as rude and insultuous, though. What am I missing?

Joaz Banbeck · **#16**

Let me see if I can make sense of this:

1) You make a joke
2) Admin clearly does not understand that it is a joke.
3) You have an opportunity to enlighten admin.
4) Instead, you choose to insult admin.

...and it goes south from there.

I can't see how you can expect any other result when you make that choice.

Bill Spight · **#17**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Let me see if I can make sense of this:

1) You make a joke
2) Admin clearly does not understand that it is a joke.
3) You have an opportunity to enlighten admin.
4) Instead, you choose to insult admin.

...and it goes south from there.

I can't see how you can expect any other result when you make that choice.

There is more than one interpretation. For instance:

1) You make a joke
2) Admin clearly does not understand that it is a joke.
3) Admin makes an inappropriate response, even assuming that it was not a joke.

...and it goes south from there.

Bill Spight · **#18**

Well, since I have drawn myself into this, I guess I should express my opinion more fully. As some people here know, I have some experience in this area. I do not play on KGS, and cannot speak directly to the culture and practices there. This is just my general opinion.

If I were the Head Administrator, I would defend the admin's actions. You have to give admins discretion. If they cannot exercise discretion, you should not have them as admins in the first place.

But I would also have a talk with the admin, along these lines. Your purpose is not to be a policeman or class monitor. Your role is more that of a host, and your purpose is to help people have a good time, to promote a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. Issuing bans and warnings may be part of that, just as a host might eject a guest who is making things unpleasant for other guests. But such measures are not to be taken lightly. They are last resorts, to be avoided if possible. In this case your actions engendered resentment. No matter who might have been right or wrong, that is an undesirable result, something to be avoided if possible.

hyperpape · **#19**

mw42 wrote:

I've had issues with KGS admins before. I perceived Herod's warning as an insult so I was rude in kind. I'm not going to be nice to someone trying to unjustly pressure me even if he is operating in some kind of official capacity. "You're on notice" is rude.

One of these things is not like the other, and I think it would help to keep the difference in mind.

palapiku · **#20**

KGS has a reputation for having rude admins. This has been the case for as long as I can remember, almost 10 years.
KGS also has a reputation for nothing ever changing. This has been the case for as long as I can remember, almost 10 years.

So, complaining will get you nowhere. If you are really bothered by this, why not help get Kaya or Nova off the ground by playing there instead. Personally, I find it easier to just self-censor myself more than I usually do.

An e-mail to admin concerning "Herod"

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