Usually I think admins do a pretty good job, especially older ones like mef or Javaness, with only small amounts of banning for childish reasons.

However, I have noticed over 2-3 years senior admins, even the good ones, abusing the power to see accounts on ip (not email). I understand sandbagging, air bagging, or abusing guest accounts being stopped by this feature. However, I like to make new accounts or guest accounts and just open a FREE game and ask "anyone for a game" or "teaching game for 12k-5k". If people ask for my rank I feel the right to give/conceal as I'm not playing ranked, tournament games or misleading anyone to believe I am stronger or weaker. I find games with players who don't know my rank refreshing sometimes as they aren't afraid or underestimating me.

That is why when several times I have gotten upset when I post a free game in the KTL and type "game up for anyone" or "anyone want a game?" only for an admin to say "it's better to put your rank, as you should know" or "setup a game and they will come, as you should know with as many accounts as you have"


This is kind of unneeded I feel, and is a breach of privacy.

Where in KGS's TOS are you granted this right to privacy?

The lack of a "right" to deceive others about your strength is the oddest KGS complaint I've seen yet.

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- Brady
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It is completely within my rights to not state a rank as long as I'm not giving a false rank or preying on people.

The use of the word 'right' is rather bizarre in this context. KGS is private property.
You have privileges, not rights; and only those granted by the owners.

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right: "2: something to which one has a just claim: as (a) the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled" [emphasis mine]

I don't see anything bizarre about this use of "right" here. KGS has a formal policy, along with normal, expected behaviors among its users and admins. It's perfectly natural to talk about user rights when an admin is (potentially) violating user "privileges".

I agree with NoSkill that this behavior (as described) by certain admins is stepping over the line, and I would be interested to see a public response on this from the admins or WMS himself.

KGS Teaching Ladder isn't a room i'm normally in there days, but I would note its room message in relation to your point. If you're being asked to post your rank, it might be because of the room policy...



That said, if you think that a particular admin is stalking you, please do go ahead and complain.

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North Lecale

Without seeing the exact circumstance, I think you may be reading a little bit into this.

Even on a guest account it can be pretty easy to get an idea if a player has been on KGS before. The fact that you found your way to the KGS Teaching Ladder, put up a game offer and had a rank range in the notes means that it's pretty reasonable to infer that you have been on KGS before and probably have a pretty good idea of you rank. Along those lines it makes sense that someone would request you mention your rank (After all it is listed in the room message, and since people rarely seem to read that, it is quite common for users in the KTL to mention those bullet points as a default response).

Now, as far as admins go, one thing you must keep in mind is that admins aren't exactly your regular every day KGS user, these are generally people who have spent way too much time on KGS already, and much of it is spent watching the social interactions taking place. The end result is that there are some who are quite adept at identifying users based on their behavior. One example - there a few perennial troublemakers who will choose gibberish for guest names then proceed to go curse out their opponents in game. Some of the admins can distinguish these people from each other simply based on the type of gibberish used in the guest names. They can also pick the names out of a user list and check in on the game being played to make sure someone isn't getting cursed out.

With that in mind, what will we know about you is: 1)You put up a game in the KTL (This already cuts us down to maybe 400 people if not less), 2) Time of day (This will put us closer to 100 people), 3) Approximate rank range based on game offer (This will probably narrow it down to maybe a dozen people), 4) Who else is logged on (this will probably be 10 of those 12). This is before we get into trying to guess based on behavior, name choice, chat style, etc. Considering all of this, it shouldn't be terribly hard for an experienced KGS user who spends their time people watching on the server to figure out who you are (another anecdote - there are admins who have had personal/playing accounts figured out by users in less than a day). Immediately assuming that they are snooping your personal information might be jumping the gun.

Now with all this out of the way, I am a little surprised that an IP address is information you would expect to be private from an administrator (I would assume the L19 admins know where I am posting from). I tend to operate under the belief that any website I visit would be logging it.


Of course at the end of the day, Javaness summed up the real solution much more succinctly -



If you have a concern you always have admin@gokgs.com

What bothers me is that I am doing nothing wrong and yet you look up my info. It was not assumptions as the conversations have went like this:

1. I setup a free game with no title/range in the KTL.
2. I say "game up for anyone"
3. Admin says "you can get a game faster if you post a rank"
4. Admin then says "but I suppose you already know that based off the number of accounts you have."

There is no reason to check my info, or say that. This has happened over a longtime on various times with different admins. Javaness we have no problem, but you have done this aswell.

I have seen admins say to other users "why do you need so many accounts" or some similar thing during an argument before as well.


Now I do think its fair for admins to have that info, but they are so fast to abuse this power and post these things. I would like that to stop unless someone is sandbagging or air bagging or some such abuse.

Just out of curiosity, to the admins following the thread: if an admin actually were using the IP look-up to indulge in curiosity about a user who had done nothing wrong, would other admins view that as bad form?

A question can be asked of the admin for the reason for the IP look-up. The reaction would then presumably be based on the original reason for the investigation. It a very difficult question to answer without context.

To whom goes this email?
Seems a bit redundant if you write a complaint about an admin, and that admin is actually the one who gets your email :-p

You can always send a pm to wms ( aka William Shubert ) here at L19.

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And I am sure he will provide the response this complaint deserves.

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- Brady
Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders

Seriously, your IP address is included in every packet sent/received by your computer, yet somehow it is private? If you feel the need to obscure it, do it, but usernames are not the right way. Their function is to identify people more consistently despite changing IP addresses not to obscure IP addresses.

Do you feel like doing something wrong when having several accounts? I doubt you would react this strongly, when you were comfortable to admit you simply have your drunkenskill, soberskill, rapidskill, motivatedskill accounts for the different kind of play.

Are you sure admins have to actually look you up each time, when this already happened several times to you on KTL?

Try to be less obsessed about rank! (It is fine when your accounts have different strength.)

Reading through the thread, I don't really see the problem. With the information provided, I think an admin responses, such as the ones quoted, are perfectly appropriate - even expected. Why someone would get upset about it is a bit beyond me... I would solve the problem simply by replying something along the lines of "... yes I know, but I just want to do it my way " -> end of the issue.

As for the ip privacy thing, I'm also wondering why would it be seen as a problem in the first place.

--

A bit off topic, but my general feeling about go players / often KGS related (admin) issues is that for some reason lots of people seem to be hyper sensitive about too many little things, as seen in other threads as well. In my opinion it's usually a given that admins do all the things folks complain about. This is the internet, after all. ...On the other hand, I personally find it hilarious/silly how strongly people react to even mild bad language in KGS chat. Is that an American thing, as over there I believe even songs are cencored on radio if there's swearing in the lyrics?

If you are pulled over by the police because your taillight isn't working, you have done nothing wrong, but they will darn well look up your license number before approaching your car. It's a perfectly sensible thing to do. Chances are that you are not an escaping serial killer in a stolen vehicle, but they have no way of knowing that without looking.

And if they see something on your record or in your car that is not actually illegal, but seems suspicious and/or questionable...like, say, you have a bunch of high-power Gro-Lights in your back seat next to a book called 'Marijuana Farming for Fun and Profit" they will probably comment on it...just to let you know they have an eye on things. And maybe even search your car.

Maybe you have those lights for your hydroponic tomato greenhouse, and maybe the book was a gag gift from your friend with the questionable sense of humor, but the cop has no way of knowing that, so it's kind of ridiculous for you to get all personally insulted and go publicly gripe to the mayor about the fact that the cop had NO right to look in your back seat, and certainly no right to comment on the perfectly legal items he saw there.

The general conclusion of anyone hearing how loudly you complained would not be to sympathize about over-policing and the aspersions cast on your respectability, but to wonder what you were covering up, to protest so loudly over such a thing.

Because it's a real danger for an user who is being questioned to shoot the admin in the face through the internet. Also, multiple accounts is like owning marijuana growing guides.

Not at all, but if you're doing something out of the ordinary, that could potentially be used for abusive reasons, they're going to take an interest.

And if you say admins shouldn't look at and note unusual or suspicious activity, one has to ask--why have admins at all?

I did nothing wrong and they look me up for no reason.. That is wrong, but I wouldn't care that much, but when they publicly give away info that I did not disclose that is a violation.

Inkwolf just keep making terrible comparisons that do not even make sense, I'm on an iPod so I can't type all the reasons you are wrong.

I suppose I just think admins should always see related accounts (those that have logged in via the same IPs) without having to look for them, and I can't quite see the rationale behind the opposing position.

Or at least, I don't see any principled reason why that information shouldn't always be available. Practically speaking, I imagine that if it were automatic, you'd start to see the effects of bad data from sheer numbers. And perhaps an admin should not automatically see through the latest 9d to show up on the server and see that it's really jimmyjoe's newest account.

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