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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #81 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:55 am 
Lives in sente
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry for the long wait. I was about to post many times before yet I kept feeling uncertain, I will try to play more on instinct from now on to speed this up.

I tried reading this out a bunch of times....oddly it seems that both the bump and double hane works. That suggests something is wrong with my reading but I can't figure out what. Double hane is the shape move here, and my reading (which is surely flawed) seem to indicate that it leaves a more severe cut in White's shape if he tries to resist with this move. Notice the bottom diagrams and the cut at 'a' bothering W.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X 4 3 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X 6 5 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #82 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:28 am 
Lives in gote
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Aphelion wrote:
I tried reading this out a bunch of times....oddly it seems that both the bump and double hane works. That suggests something is wrong with my reading...



Hey Aphelion:
Why does that suggest something is wrong with your reading? Why can't they both work?

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #83 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:42 pm 
Judan
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I approve.
I looks bad for us, but we are in too deep to quit now.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #84 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:44 pm 
Lives with ko
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There's something wrong with each of Aphelion's variations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 0 . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X 4 3 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black seems done for.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X 6 5 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here white has a ladder. If black instead descended one more time, then it's as above but with white's inside group having yet another liberty.

I'm not seeing a line for black to capture, but just countering these two lines doesn't mean there isn't one, of course. Any help?

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #85 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:28 am 
Dies with sente

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prokofiev wrote:
Black seems done for.



I don't think so.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by walleye was liked by: prokofiev
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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #86 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:02 am 
Lives with ko
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walleye wrote:
prokofiev wrote:
Black seems done for.



I don't think so.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thanks! Guess I was missing the point of black's kosumi. Looks like black can descend one more time and do this in the current variation as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #87 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:28 am 
Tengen
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Whilst I wait, here's my reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . 6 O 5 X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 1 3 4 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Move 27 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Move 27 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Move 27 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 Move 27 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . 2 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Am really unsure about :w22: though. It opens up some lines better, but is a terrible move if we're sacrificing anyway. Will worry about it when we get there.

Am also messing around with:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thing is, I'm not sure if saving those stones is worth Black's potential on the right hand side. It could be huge. The potential in my first line is in White's favour to compensate for the loss. Here, I'm not sure if keeping those stones alive is enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #88 Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:51 am 
Gosei
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Sorry for the delay.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't see any other move that still keeps the groups separated.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #89 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:49 am 
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if approved by topazg:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X B X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


only move

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #90 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:12 am 
Tengen
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Approved

I misread. The following is great looking:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The following? Not so much :(

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 6 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . 5 O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think :w24: can be at :w25:, so I'll play that way, but this could be awkward at best. Maybe as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O 6 X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X a b O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #91 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:48 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X B X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Forced.

This move removes a lot of aji on my right. I think W is making a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #92 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:43 pm 
Tengen
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Followup:

The reason I chose against changing that move, as with the majority of my reading in the previous post, is because some of it is just so complicated to read, and I want to minimise the number of changes I have to make. Most of the moves White was playing to squeeze out are ataris, so MHO will have obvious approved moves, and if I lose 3 or 4 alterations on any of those lines we are probably in trouble.

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Post #93 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:31 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Once again, the only move that still leaves the black group separated.
I'm just not sure what will happen with the top white group. I don't see a good way to live with it, nor a good way to sacrifice it.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #94 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:44 pm 
Tengen
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Not approved :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 Move 20b - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No point in separating two groups that are alive because they killed ours. This move seems to be the only way to create enough aji, am thinking White should have not ataried from that side after all

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #95 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:33 pm 
Judan
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Thank you, Topazg, for attaching to our weak stone! :D

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Post #96 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:57 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 21a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . . 9 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O 8 X 3 1 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[hide]
This looks amazing for B. I don't need to kill, if I can make W live sealed or connect my group out in a thick manner and while retaining sente thats a bargain.

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Post #97 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:54 am 
Judan
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With better defense, it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 21a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 9 . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O 7 X 3 1 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Which means we can't play quite so aggressively with 6.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 21a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 0 8 5 9 . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 4 O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O 6 X 3 1 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Still, this loks better for black.

...which means that the cut at 3 is probably not good for white. So...


I approve.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #98 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:12 am 
Tengen
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The more I read, the more I should have changed that last one I wanted to. I can see myself changing a bunch more moves now anyway, so it's not like this has helped :P

Honestly, rengo is soo much more easy than this, you double and triple think yourself and your partner all the time here.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #99 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:21 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Some reading:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X 2 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X 2 . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Move 21a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 3 . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O 6 X 2 5 O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Post #100 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:02 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm22 Move 22a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure what topazg has in mind, but this move seems to be basic instinct. Hope it is. :/

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