Life In 19x19 :: Big Brother Malkovich #2

Up until I was about 8k I have strictly been a influence / attacking style, and I almost never won any games where I didn't have a huge moyo or killed a large group. Since then I've been trying to change to a more balanced playing style.

For the last few months I've been playing almost strictly 3-4 points in the opening. I am doing this because I am trying to shift my style to be more territorial, solid, and focused upon getting a point advantage into the endgame. The 3-4 is more territorial than the 4-4 and helps in this regard. My usual fuseki as black is as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I intend to make a shimari and pincer an approach against the bottom right. Against the high approach I usually play either 'a' or 'b', if white approaches low I almost always play 'a' because I like the way it constricts white and I am not comfortable handling the tighter pincer stone. This game however, if white plays a 4-4 on top left I am also comtemplating approaching at directly for a mini-chinese formation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This creates a more fighting oriented game, which I don't mind too much, but usually I find the overall game to be unclear and rather chaotic afterwards. I am also not familiar with the common follow ups after this fuseki. However, with a Big Brother backing me up, this might be a good time to learn more about this opening.

I think Phelan is far too worried. Sente is a relative thing.

I'd be very happy with the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . 3 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, I'm fine with what we're doing too, so that's ok.

My first instinct here is to approach at the top,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Approach immediately $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . W , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

to prevent this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Famous opening that I can't remember the name of $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think Phelan needs to do this (see post above). We can still handle Black's approach as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Generally, approaching a 3-4, 3-5, or 4-5 point is a higher priority than a 4-4 point because 4-4 points have greater flexibility. I agree completely that if we take the 4-4 in the top left Black should not let White get the upper right approach too, but if this globally is what Phelan is worried about, I think it would have been more consistent to play D16 before the lower left corner, and approach in the top right instead of the last empty corner. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc More consistent opening $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

From a directional point of view, leaving the lower left corner empty to have a 4-4 supporting the approach at the top is more consistent than moving D16 down to the lower left.

Author:	Aphelion [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Big Brother Malkovich #2
Hi, this will be a second Big Brother Malkovich with the teams being Joaz and me against Phelan and Topazg. Phelan and I will be the bumbling little brothers and Joaz and Topazg will be here to inject the necessary wisdom. For those who are unfamiliar with our ranks: Team 1: Aphelion (6k) Joaz (~1-2d) Team 2: Phelan (6k) Topazg (~1-2d) Rules: We are playing with Japanese rules with a 6.5 komi. We will also be trying a quota as opposed to a point system for big brother changes. There will be no point penalty for changes, but the changes will be limited. Each team starts with a counter of 10 total changes, and after every five consecutive moves without a change this counter will increment by one. The total amount of available changes may not exceed 10. Having tossed a coin, I am taking Black and will start the game. Here's my first move: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Up until I was about 8k I have strictly been a influence / attacking style, and I almost never won any games where I didn't have a huge moyo or killed a large group. Since then I've been trying to change to a more balanced playing style. For the last few months I've been playing almost strictly 3-4 points in the opening. I am doing this because I am trying to shift my style to be more territorial, solid, and focused upon getting a point advantage into the endgame. The 3-4 is more territorial than the 4-4 and helps in this regard. My usual fuseki as black is as follows: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I intend to make a shimari and pincer an approach against the bottom right. Against the high approach I usually play either 'a' or 'b', if white approaches low I almost always play 'a' because I like the way it constricts white and I am not comfortable handling the tighter pincer stone. This game however, if white plays a 4-4 on top left I am also comtemplating approaching at directly for a mini-chinese formation: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This creates a more fighting oriented game, which I don't mind too much, but usually I find the overall game to be unclear and rather chaotic afterwards. I am also not familiar with the common follow ups after this fuseki. However, with a Big Brother backing me up, this might be a good time to learn more about this opening.

Author:	schultz [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Are you guys using the same rules that the Big Brothers can read the little brothers comments? I like the commentary that goes along with that. And I look forward to following this game!

Author:	Phelan [ Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
schultz wrote: Are you guys using the same rules that the Big Brothers can read the little brothers comments? I like the commentary that goes along with that. I'm assuming so, since it makes sense.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
I'm not sure what it would cost me to change that, so I'll approve it. BTW, what is komi?

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Oops, sorry I forgot to include that. Komi is 6.5, we're using Japanese rules if no one objects.

Life In 19x19 http://lifein19x19.com/

Big Brother Malkovich #2 http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=775	Page 1 of 15

Author:	Tryphon [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Joaz Banbeck wrote: BTW, what is komi? Komi is an amount of points Black gives to White, to compensate the fact he plays first. I'm surprised you don't know that

Author:	topazg [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Presumably we have 10 changes as the initial tally, and +1 for every 5 moves played by our team that we leave alone up to a max of 10?

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
At first I thought the 10 initial tally might be a little high, but looking at the other Malkovich game I think its about right for those crazy 'Violence style' sequences, so I am fine with his system.

Author:	Phelan [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] I was thinking of taking the top left corner, to get a good followup approach on their top stone, but with sente on their side, they have time to fix it. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Black's sente $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . 5 , 1 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] So just an ordinary move for now.

Author:	topazg [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Approved. I think Phelan is far too worried. Sente is a relative thing. I'd be very happy with the following: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . 3 , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Or this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] However, I'm fine with what we're doing too, so that's ok.

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Move 3 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Change counter: B - 10 W - 10 I see D16 played more often here, giving him the possibility of an ideal approach but it looks like he's avoiding a diagonal fuseki. His move gives me the opportunity to play the Chinese Opening or simply mukai komoku should I take the upper left corner. Does this mean that he is more comfortable with a moyo game as opposed to a more territorial one? That's all speculation at this rate, so I will stick to my plan. I am more visually attracted to left-right games rather than top bottom games too, not that it makes any difference . I am curious to see whether the next move will be at D16 or D17. If he plays D16 that gives me the opportunity to play the mini Chinese, while if he played D17 I might consider an immediate approach. P17 is a fine point regardless of his next play, so there's always that option. Edit: added change counter. See OP for details on our quota system.

Author:	topazg [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Aphelion wrote: Edit: added change counter. These will increment every multiple of 5 (at moves 5, 10, 15, etc) and will be capped at 10. I was thinking of every 5 moves by that "team", and only if they haven't corrected inbetween. So, for example, if White corrects at move 24 (White's 12th move), move 34 would get that correction back provided 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34 were not corrected. As it stands there will be a lot more corrections. I'm still going to put the corrections and comments I would make in my hide tags when I don't correct, but that way it at least allows the little brothers to keep up the game flow more.

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Ahh, that makes more sense. I will change the rules to match your suggestion.

Author:	topazg [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Aphelion wrote: Ahh, that makes more sense. I will change the rules to match your suggestion. It also probably explained why you thought there would be so many changes Thoughts for the game: I'm probably going to play a couple of early corrections to throw the game into unusual and uncomfortable 6k territory. Part of the point of this is supposed to be educational, and playing a standard 6k vs 6k game with a few move corrections on tactical and strategic blunders seems less interesting somehow. Even when I'm not correcting, I will be commenting, so hopefully the value of going through a game afterwards will be higher for the little brothers if they weren't just playing out "the sequence I always play in this position" by rote. That's the idea anyway

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Author:	Phelan [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
My first instinct here is to approach at the top, Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Approach immediately $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . W , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] to prevent this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Famous opening that I can't remember the name of $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	topazg [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
I don't think Phelan needs to do this (see post above). We can still handle Black's approach as follows: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . W . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Generally, approaching a 3-4, 3-5, or 4-5 point is a higher priority than a 4-4 point because 4-4 points have greater flexibility. I agree completely that if we take the 4-4 in the top left Black should not let White get the upper right approach too, but if this globally is what Phelan is worried about, I think it would have been more consistent to play D16 before the lower left corner, and approach in the top right instead of the last empty corner. For example: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc More consistent opening $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] From a directional point of view, leaving the lower left corner empty to have a 4-4 supporting the approach at the top is more consistent than moving D16 down to the lower left.

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
You guys are having way too much fun for move 4...

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
topazg wrote: Aphelion wrote: Edit: added change counter. These will increment every multiple of 5 (at moves 5, 10, 15, etc) and will be capped at 10. I was thinking of every 5 moves by that "team", and only if they haven't corrected inbetween. So, for example, if White corrects at move 24 (White's 12th move), move 34 would get that correction back provided 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34 were not corrected. As it stands there will be a lot more corrections. I'm still going to put the corrections and comments I would make in my hide tags when I don't correct, but that way it at least allows the little brothers to keep up the game flow more. This works well for most of the game I think. But big brother still has an incentive to take over the endgame. It is a waste of corrections to end the game without using them all. So it makes sense to let a 3 or 4-point improvement slide in the opening or middle game, but to make a 1/3 point correction near the end. I'm not complaining, just noting the inexorable logic of the situation.

Author:	topazg [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Joaz Banbeck wrote: topazg wrote: Aphelion wrote: Edit: added change counter. These will increment every multiple of 5 (at moves 5, 10, 15, etc) and will be capped at 10. I was thinking of every 5 moves by that "team", and only if they haven't corrected inbetween. So, for example, if White corrects at move 24 (White's 12th move), move 34 would get that correction back provided 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34 were not corrected. As it stands there will be a lot more corrections. I'm still going to put the corrections and comments I would make in my hide tags when I don't correct, but that way it at least allows the little brothers to keep up the game flow more. This works well for most of the game I think. But big brother still has an incentive to take over the endgame. It is a waste of corrections to end the game without using them all. So it makes sense to let a 3 or 4-point improvement slide in the opening or middle game, but to make a 1/3 point correction near the end. I'm not complaining, just noting the inexorable logic of the situation. Sure, but I'm guessing by endgame I'm going to have 1 or 2 corrections left

Author:	Aphelion [ Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Big Brother Malkovich #2
Joaz Banbeck wrote: topazg wrote: Aphelion wrote: Edit: added change counter. These will increment every multiple of 5 (at moves 5, 10, 15, etc) and will be capped at 10. I was thinking of every 5 moves by that "team", and only if they haven't corrected inbetween. So, for example, if White corrects at move 24 (White's 12th move), move 34 would get that correction back provided 26, 28, 30, 32, and 34 were not corrected. As it stands there will be a lot more corrections. I'm still going to put the corrections and comments I would make in my hide tags when I don't correct, but that way it at least allows the little brothers to keep up the game flow more. This works well for most of the game I think. But big brother still has an incentive to take over the endgame. It is a waste of corrections to end the game without using them all. So it makes sense to let a 3 or 4-point improvement slide in the opening or middle game, but to make a 1/3 point correction near the end. I'm not complaining, just noting the inexorable logic of the situation. By the time end game comes 1-3 points is worth more relative to the total amount of points left, so that might not be too bad. Plus, given my endgame, I'm fairly certain you won't have much problems regarding too many move corrections .