Regarding the top, I'm also considering all of the moves A through F instead of 3. The idea behind D, E, and F is to make white's normal approach a bad move, encouraging a backside approach after which black can solidify the corner, or for white to approach normally and black to play on both sides. A would be played for similar reasons to the top left, but I don't like the absolute symmetry and keeping everything on the top high. B and C are more traditional low enclosures, but they don't put as much pressure on a topside invasion. is similar to D E and F from the right side, aiming to pincer if/when white approaches.
I think I will play though, as it seems to make miai of invading the two corners, and white's position could fall to pieces on the right side if he doesn't defend.
Here, I think I'd want to pincer at A or B to balance with the left side and make the right side group safe by attacking . Once that's safe, the right side invasion opens up. This approach does make me wish black had only made a two space extension at the start, though.
With the high approach, something like the magic sword pincer seems in order, as if white takes the simple move of black is already one step ahead after he responds on the left, giving time to cut white off from the side stone. This means white should probably go for a more complicated variation, where I hope to rely on white's thin side and black's top left thickness to get a good result in fighting.
These two white moves, which I will discuss as a group, aim to avoid getting pincered as harshly. I'm not sure if white would go for them, as I don't think a tight pincer of a closer white approach would necessarily be to black's advantage.
I think it's safe to say that a black move to secure the corner at A would be followed by something like white B, and a white move in the corner could be followed up by developing the top for black. There are also some more fighty moves around the two space high approach, but ladders favour white at the moment for the most part. I'm not convinced that this leads to great development for black, though.
Overall, I think black's top side may be broken up more than I'd like...
I was originally skeptical of these moves, but am becoming less so. My expectations would be a wedge on the top or a knight's move approach to a high enclosure, the marked points above. A wedge I would approach from a side with a high enclosure, expecting a two space extension from which I would extend down the side in the approached corner, as to the original move A. This would be more favourable for black if I play the low enclosure, because white wouldn't be able to extend under the shimari for stability. Black could also consider capping the wedge, looking forward to center fighting and invading white's sides. Also, they do say that giving black two corner enclosures is too kind to him.
D and E are a bit different, still making a well defined corner enclosure, but trading security for more potential. I've played D before, and here it is similar to the small knight's enclosure aside from making the top side one stone less wide. I'm inclined to think that this isn't enough of a benefit to trade for the corner aji. I think it makes a white checking extension up the right side a good move.
E is a bit weirder. I've seen it in some shinfuseki era games but haven't ever played it. It's similar to the one space high enclosure, but leaves a lot more aji. I think it's more akin to a normal two space extension on the fourth line. It could end up nice and thick, but if it turns into a wall, its extension is a bit cramped. I'm concerned again that a white checking extension could leave it overconcentrated.
To start with the last first, H makes a chinese-type formation on the top side. This is a bit blighted by the marked white stone, though, keeping black from making a lot on the right side. The left side also doesn't have room to make a truly prodigious moyo. Certainly, if black made the chinese formation first, it would not be good for black to split up the bottom side immediately afterwards, so I'm leaning away from this (yay tewari?).
Actually, I'm not going to discuss the other two, because I think the same issue applies, even though I was initially excited about these moves.
I threw these in because they popped into my head today when I started this post, but I think that they are premature. Once I do something in the upper right, which is the least developed area of the board, a move around here becomes a decent idea.
So now I'm set on either B or C. I think I will go with the high move to maintain the symmetry and also because I will need strength towards the center in the future, since that is where most of white's prospects are. I have plans to deal with several white moves on the bottom as well, including a center cap, a third line invasion, and a horse-head shape into the center, but I'm tired of writing about moves so they'll get postponed for now.
I'm pretty clearly giving up sente here, though I'm quite satisfied with black's position, so let's see what white wants to do.
And before posting, I've changed my mind. I want the low move. I'd rather not let white get both checking extensions or the like in sente. Hopefully Joaz will take a look at this and change if I'm making a terrible decision, but I don't think I am.
Posts: 5539 Location: Banbeck Vale Liked others: 1103 Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
I hate giving up sente. And both of the lower corners look important. White can play D2 or Q2 in sente. I think a play in either lower corner is better than younger brother's move. But exactly where in the corner? And is it 3+ points better?
I'll have to think about this. I'll post in a day or two.
Posts: 2494 Location: DC Liked others: 157 Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
I'd be very amused if Splatted is worrying about all my hide tags I'd be happy to just induce him to make mistakes that get corrected and collect points that way, or that don't that I can punish (assuming they're that kind of mistake).
Posts: 5539 Location: Banbeck Vale Liked others: 1103 Was liked: 1456
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Why is my younger brother so focused on the upper side??? The lower side is full of dubious aji.
I was worried about the plays at D2 or Q2. It turns out that they are not much to worry about. An attempt to do so just compels us to fix some of the bad aji:
A play at 1 allows us to fix with 2, and then 3 is gote for them because 2 has made us strong enough to fight if W invades at 'a'. If that were all I needed to worry about, then I would approve.
But there are two other possibilities. On of them is if white gets a few moves on the other side such that they can go for a moyo, then the horsehead can be a big sente under certain circumstances:
My general theory here - developed from weak spots at H3 and M3 in the diagrams above - is that we must hold the K4 stone, and that that stone must make a group with its neighbor to one side or the other. Once it forms a group that way, the other side is much more stable, because an invading stone is in trouble the moment it is played:
[go]$$Wc Black 4 is at one of the circled points. Seems ok for us. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . C . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . C . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . X . 3 . X . C C . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I like the second alternative because it goes for a corner, whereas the first goes for a side.
So, to recap the logic so far: the dual H3 and M3 invasion points are bad aji for us, and something should be done about it. We only need to fix one. It can be fixed by occupying the gap, or extending into a corner. Extending into a corner is better.
Thus the next question is: where to go in the corner? There are three possibilities that I can see:
I don't think I understand Joaz's correction. I can see that if I played 14 before his invasion it would be a strong move that takes a lot of territory and weakens his group, and with the invasion he's the one making territory instead, but it also does more damage to his bottom group. Why not something like d2 to strengthen his group instead of weakening it?
I guess he feels I won't be able to attack the whole group, and being willing to sacrifice some of it will stop me from being able to force him low. I look froward to reading the (many) comments for this.
Last edited by Splatted on Wed May 08, 2013 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Posts: 2494 Location: DC Liked others: 157 Was liked: 442
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
I don't like black's previous move. Previously, black had miai of the two bottom corners if white chose to protect one, but this feels like it damages black's bottom and side prospects, and white already has high stones to help fighting here. I also don't think protecting the corners was urgent for white. I think Joaz is trying to reduce white's territorial prospects, but I'm not convinced it's necessary, since they're already smaller than blacks' and white will try to make up the difference via thickness to invade and make territory in the center.
If I respond locally at this point, I assume white would block and let black live on the left side in exchange for trashing the bottom. I'd be a bit surprised if white chose the side instead, as that seems to help strengthen black and doesn't offer that much in way of gain. I'm tempted to leave this position as it is and return to it later to play a move in the top right again. Isn't a white move there bigger than a follow up on the bottom? Am I missing something?
Posts: 734 Liked others: 683 Was liked: 138
Rank: Washed up never was
Universal go server handle: Splatted
I forgot to mention the main reason I'm confused by Joaz's correction. Invading the corner and sealing it off are both gote moves and it's a symetrical position, so aren't they miai?
This is the way to block. If he hane's, then you decided if you want him to live in the corner or let him connect underneath.
Oh, and I don't get Joaz's change. To me, making an enclosure follows principles, but the top seems like the biggest place either way. This move also seems to give up sente. allowing us to get a move somewhere on the top. It feels weird having our points coming from two different places as white. I think I should have changed the move I earlier mentioned that would have built up the bottom left side and pressured his splitting stone. It's still hard to decide if it's good enough to give up points for. But, I definitely think that Joaz's move wasn't, so that's a plus for us.
So as I wrote before, the question is whether or not to tenuki. If I play locally, I think it's vital to end in sente, and while the bog standard sequence ends that way, there are quite a few ways for white to attempt to end in sente instead that I am not sure I can resist. I'm tempted to see what happens if I take the top and white spends a move to respond in the bottom left and kill the aji. Not sure if that's white's best play at that time. Perhaps white should secure the other corner?
I still feel the top right is bigger, though, so I'm going to play there. Maybe Joaz has a different game plan, but I don't know what it is, and I don't think I can blunder around trying to find it at 3 points a pop.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
Login
Register
FAQ
Search
Dragon Pie
is similar to D E and F from the right side, aiming to pincer if/when white approaches.
though, as it seems to make miai of invading the two corners, and white's position could fall to pieces on the right side if he doesn't defend.
. Once that's safe, the right side invasion opens up. This approach does make me wish black had only made a two space extension at the start, though.
black is already one step ahead after he responds on the left, giving time to cut white off from the side stone. This means white should probably go for a more complicated variation, where I hope to rely on white's thin side and black's top left thickness to get a good result in fighting.
I'd be happy to just induce him to make mistakes that get corrected and collect points that way, or that don't that I can punish (assuming they're that kind of mistake).
