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 Post subject: About done with IGS
Post #1 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:09 am 
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I am finding that IGS is very much a mixed bag - I play my online go most frequently on my iPad, and therefore the most attractive options for online play are IGS and Tygem, whose iOS apps are beautifully done. However, I am getting a little frustrated with rankings on IGS that don't seem to measure my progress very well. There are SO many accounts that are obviously club or salon accounts which are used by who knows whom (noted here in this thread) and whose IGS ratings are disconnected with the playing strength in any given game. There are a few 17k accounts (I fluctuate at IGS between 16 and 17k) who are obviously used by many people - some of which I have played a dozen times or more and notice a wild difference in ability, and some of which I have never beaten (one in particular I've played 15 times and haven't come close). All of these wild accounts have thousands of games played - so you can stay away from them by being careful, but it's a pain.

From what I know, once you reach low SDK rankings are more stable - but at the moment I can play at a much higher level on KGS than I can on IGS - but I'm still solidly in the DDK region (for now!) I guess I'm just going to have to play more at KGS if I want to be able to track my improvement by something outside my subjective perceptions. Never knowing what I'm really going to face in an IGS opponent is getting tiresome.

What I really wish is that the KGS developers would allow an iOS app - I know that's wishful thinking. Luckily we have an alternative means to get to KGS via Mark Hampton (http://www.hilolens.com/kgs.html) but I would really prefer playing on a native iOS app...

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #2 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:52 am 
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Tygem would really not be much better for you.

Rather than give up, why not post some games you've lost and try to learn as much as you can from them?

I wish Tygem would have an English client on Android but that doesn't seem be happening soon either. :)

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #3 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:24 am 
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oren wrote:
Tygem would really not be much better for you.

Rather than give up, why not post some games you've lost and try to learn as much as you can from them?

I wish Tygem would have an English client on Android but that doesn't seem be happening soon either. :)



I'm not giving up go by any means - and it's not a question of learning from mistakes or whatever. I have reviewed games (not here so much) with others, and am happy with the feedback I've been able to get on games I've lost.

What I'm possibly giving up on - at least until I'm through to SDK where the number of anonymous "club" or "salon" accounts is fewer - is playing on IGS. (and Tygem I know has similar issues)

It is irritating beyond belief to be playing someone whose rating indicates that they should roughly be your skill level, or perhaps slightly above - and then be slaughtered because the individual actually playing is clearly several stones stronger yet is playing you an even game. Again, it's not about the rating - but about expectations and what I think is a reasonable thing to desire -that a rating fairly represents the strength of one's opponent. Can I learn from an experience losing a game to someone who is much stronger than their indicated rating? No doubt.... but as I've said, that's not really the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #4 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Hey sir quantum,

It's not possible for now to develop an IoS client for kgs, because Java is not supported. But the good news is, wms (kgs developper) has been working on an html client which will be accessible via IoS, and that will have the same functionnalities (in better than now) as the current android client.

cgb'

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #5 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:49 pm 
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If an account is rated 17k then it should be winning about half its games and losing about half. Otherwise it would be improving. It seems very odd that you would end up playing in only those games it wins and not catching any of those it loses. It seems to me that something else is going on here, but I have no clue what. I have not logged into IGS in at least 12 years so I have no idea how it works these days.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #6 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:46 pm 
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A few thoughts:

IGS and KGS ranks are not equal.

17k is the beginner level that you will reach after you have won a few games in the BC (beginners' class), so yes, the difference of skill levels there is enormous. To a lesser extent that also applies to 16k.

KGS is the best beginner friendly (realtime) server (with a critical mass of players that will allow you to get games quite quickly in the 10-25k ranges). If your goal is to get equal games, I would not recommend to play on IGS before you have reached at least 10k on KGS


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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #7 Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:20 am 
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Hi Dr Quantum

I will always repeat a wise man's words I've read some years ago: "who cares how many games you've lost as a DDK, once you are 5 dan". (change 5d with whatever rank seems attractive to you).

The key point is improving your skill and games are the single most important way to learn to play better go. If you play even handed against players who seem to bit stronger, take advantage of the occasion to learn. If they seem to be weaker, implement what you've learnt and stick to your dictums.

If you maintain a learning attitude, winning will come naturally. You will progress beyond DDK very fast, whether it be on IGS or KGS. If there is a bug in the algorithm, it should affect many players and the servers would be abandoned.

Don't get too disheartened by events in the online Go world. Try to learn from every occasion.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #8 Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:22 am 
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Who cares how many games you've lost as a DDK, once you are 9p :)

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 Post subject: About done with IGS
Post #9 Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:04 pm 
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Karaklis seems finally to have caught my drift. It's not about losing games - I always learn something from losses, and that's good. My issue is also not about progressing - I know I am in part because my kgs ranking is moving up in a regular manner. The main issue is that when I'm playing a 16k or 17k on IGS it would be nice to be sure I'm actually playing a 16 or 17k, and not a 10k strength player that all things being equal I ought to be taking a few stones handicap in playing... I rather enjoy playing even games against players significantly stronger than I am - if I know that from the outset.

Anyway, no need to beat this horse.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #10 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:55 am 
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I think if you choose rated games only on IGS you might get opponents that are more legitimate. The only problem is that Tetsuki doesn't have that feature in the auto locate player. The desktop does.

WBaduk has a pretty awesome UI and comparable iOS app. In fact I like it in some ways better than IGS. The time is displayed on the bottom and is BIGGER which makes it easier to determine if you are mismanaging your time. You can also estimate the score during game which works fairly well after you get about half done. It can be confusing at first as there are several servers it plugs into but there are always about 3000 players logged into the servers at any time. Of note, they also rate all the way down to 25K.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #11 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:16 am 
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Progenitor wrote:
WBaduk has a pretty awesome UI and comparable iOS app.


Could you say something about your operating system? I have tried wbaduk under Windows 7 and Debian/Wine. Under Win7 the client immediately crashes (and litters the desktop with crash message boxes while making a "crash sound" repeatedly, not exactly suited to increase my confidence in that client... :-?), if it is not run with administrator rights. With administrator rights, there are still quite some possibilities to crash the client (e. g. during counting a game, which is especially annoying). Wine under Debian stable seems to emulate something like a Win-XP environment. Here the app starts smoothly, but sometimes after clicking on the "wrong" menu or popup list the client can freeze. Thus, the only possibility for me to use wbaduk with a more or less stable client is the iOS app. Were there any recent updates in the wbaduk clients?

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 Post subject: About done with IGS
Post #12 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:18 am 
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To be honest I've never used the desktop version of Wbaduk, I've only used the iOS version and also the Android version on my tablet. Both of them are stable. I'll try the desktop version and see if I have any issues.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #13 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:37 am 
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wbaduk on the PC has an odd rejoin issue to get it to work when you first login. They mention it on their web page but never fixed it. I mostly use the Japanese client where it's not an issue.

Other than the need to rejoin to connect the first time, wbaduk works ok. The big disadvantage is you don't get access to saved games on the server anymore. Oddly, I can play on the server and save the game I just played, but I won't see it later. If I use the Japanese client, I can get to the same game I couldn't see on the English client that the English client played.

It's also my favorite client to play on for Android with the one exception that you can't leave the program at all or it will disconnect.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #14 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:40 am 
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Progenitor wrote:
WBaduk has a pretty awesome UI

The desktop UI is extremely ugly and pesky with its avatars. It's the main reason why I don't play on WBaduk.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #15 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:45 am 
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schawipp wrote:
Under Win7 the client immediately crashes ...


I gave it another try on the WBaduk homepage, and there seems now a new update from end of December 2013. Now - except from an issue that you eventually have to try the log-in procedure two times - it seems to run under Win7 and I can run it even as non-admin.

To the OP: The issue with strong players playing at seemingly low ranks seems even more pronounced on wbaduk compared to IGS. So, unless you are better than maybe KGS 4k you will end up as DDK on wbaduk. However once you know that, it's only a relative number... If you like games which are focused on fighting, wbaduk is a great place.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #16 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:02 pm 
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16kyu-17kyu is pretty extreme, I think the lowest IGS goes is 18 kyu. I wouldn't be too upset about it. Though I have noticed that westerners tend to progress through the servers as their strength increases. I don't see many Tygem players below 7kyu, and only KGS supports infinitely weak kyu ranks.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #17 Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:18 am 
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This is a common complaint for many IGS member starting out there.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #18 Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:32 am 
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This response is not meant for the original poster, it's only my thoughts about Go in my short playing time.

I play on IGS and find the competition different than KGS. I am still in the DDK ranking but it seems to me that the 16ks on IGS are equal to about 11k on KGS. KGS has me at a higher rank than IGS.

I definitely notice that the players in the DDK range on IGS are more technical players than similar ranked KGS. Karaklis referenced a nice chart of the difference in rankings.

I prefer the stronger competition on IGS. It is the only way you're going to improve. Also, worrying about rank is not going to help you improve but only make the situation worse.

In my younger days, I was a Judoka. Go reminds me a lot of Judo. When you first start a marital art, you're going to take a lot of beatings. Then one day you start giving the beatings, if you stick with it. I saw many people come and go in Judo who could not take losing or being dominated. It's hard on the Ego to lose, if you do not have the right mind set. Many people just expect to get better with out the blood and sweat. I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work. Instead, focusing on your weak areas and strengthening them will be much more beneficial than becoming emotional or too tied to ones ranking. Holding on to things is the surest way to suffering.

Another problem that I see is the equating of game playing with intelligence. I enjoy playing many different types of games. I've been in several gaming groups and played with people whose whole life and well being depended on winning a game. I like to win a game just as much as anybody else. Though, I realize some people may be better than me naturally. I will have to work harder at learning and understanding the game, if I want to beat them.

I'm of the belief that hard work, proper practice and discipline can take you far. In athletics, if you're body is not built for a certain event, then of course you can only move so far. But games are a mind sport, so they are not limited by physical talent. Sometimes having a highly gifted IQ is a problem. I've noticed some people who have a natural talent and catch on quickly at something are more likely to quit when the going gets tough. Where as the student of average or slightly about average ability will persevere. This is anecdotal evidence so I'm not stating this as a fact, only my observations.

With the original posters, I agree about the nicer interface of Go Panda. This is what initially drew me to Go Panda over KGS.


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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #19 Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:25 am 
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Justin2013 wrote:
When you first start a marital art, you're going to take a lot of beatings.

QFT :rambo:


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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #20 Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:00 am 
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Justin2013 wrote:
I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work.

Wow. Nice gross generalization. And a nice fallacy, too. Are "self-esteem" and "hard work" measured on the same scale so that valuing one hurts the other?

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