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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #21 Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:10 am 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Justin2013 wrote:
I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work.

Wow. Nice gross generalization. And a nice fallacy, too. Are "self-esteem" and "hard work" measured on the same scale so that valuing one hurts the other?


Well, as an American I have to say that even thought it may be a generalization it is certainly not a fallacy. The younger generation (under 30-ish) doesn't, for the most part, have much clue about hard work but is ruled by a sense of self-esteem. I see it every day in the kids I interact with in class and the people around me as I go about my business. As I say, a generalization and not true of everyone, but certain true of a large enough percentage to be significant.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #22 Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:08 am 
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DrStraw wrote:
wineandgolover wrote:
Justin2013 wrote:
I'm not sure if it is only American culture but American culture values self esteem over hard work.

Wow. Nice gross generalization. And a nice fallacy, too. Are "self-esteem" and "hard work" measured on the same scale so that valuing one hurts the other?


Well, as an American I have to say that even thought it may be a generalization it is certainly not a fallacy. The younger generation (under 30-ish) doesn't, for the most part, have much clue about hard work but is ruled by a sense of self-esteem. I see it every day in the kids I interact with in class and the people around me as I go about my business. As I say, a generalization and not true of everyone, but certain true of a large enough percentage to be significant.

I see. It's true, because in your experience it's true. Another logical fallacy.

How's this for a generalization? Older people have complained about the younger generation since time immemorial. Yet somehow humanity progresses. Weird isn't it? Shouldn't we regress if the current young generation is and always has been slackers?

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #23 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:57 am 
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How's this for a generalization? Older people have complained about the younger generation since time immemorial. Yet somehow humanity progresses. Weird isn't it? Shouldn't we regress if the current young generation is and always has been slackers?


I think we may be regressing. It is not uncommon to find many 20-30 year olds still living at home. I read some research a while back that 36 percent of Millennials still live at home.

Americans students rank number one in self esteem but are severely lacking in educational achievement. Clearly something is missing and it's not self esteem. My wife teaches at a University and has told me that she receives calls from parents about their children's grade. This has increased throughout the years. This is pretty silly when you think about it. A grown adult has their Mom or Dad call to change a grade due to their lack of preparation or poor performance. Many times the students will hand in papers that are horrible and say that it is an A paper. Or even funnier, the student will have Ds on their tests and think they deserve an "A" for the course .

I am sure that there are many hardworking students and young adults. I'm not saying all Americans have this view. Clearly though, our educational scores show that something is missing. It can not be money. We spend more money on our education system than most countries. America has to import in talent from other countries due to the lack of skilled or educated American public. There is a culture of entitlement and lack of responsibilities for one's actions. Perhaps, this could have stemmed from the Baby Boomer Generation.

Hard work and discipline bring about resilience in an individual. This is a proven fact. Self esteem is being proven as being ineffective. This is a real problem.

I've noticed that many young adults will not take a job because they consider it below them. When children did not live at home in their twenties or thirties, they took what job they could find. Most of the people that I grew up with took jobs where we could find them. We did not live at home in our twenties and thirties. It was not the norm to live at home in your twenties and thirties. In tough economic times, people roomed together or shared the rent. There have always been tough economic times. I do not buy the argument about the Great Recession and Millennials living at home.

Again, I am not making a universal statement that all Americans have this attitude. I am making the statement that this attitude is part of the culture. Hard work and discipline are not cultural values praised or esteemed in U.S society.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #24 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:32 pm 
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Personally, I like IGS(as a beginner, and as of now) precisely because of the disconnect between rating and playing strength. The reason for that is that you don't really need to care about the number you're given. You can play whoever, rating changes randomly, and all you are guaranteed is a very rough ballpark of actual skill. Too exact measurement of skill tends to induce rating anxiety, which makes you too rating-conscious to play as much and as well as you could. For that reason, you could view it rather like a feature that the server doesn't have that precise ratings, and for similar reasons I tend to recommend places like Yahoo go and PlayOK for beginners, to protect them from rating-consciousness for as long as possible by non-existent or really bad rating systems.


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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #25 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:24 am 
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StlenVlr wrote:
rating changes randomly


I'm not sure I follow this part of your post. IGS is one of the least random rating systems out there. It's very easy to calculate the RP gained and lost from games. How are you using random here?

KGS is probably the most random. Tygem is very stable. Wbaduk you can calculate but has a few more variables based on streaks and rank you're at that can make it more difficult. I would place IGS as the easiest to figure out.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #26 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:53 am 
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oren wrote:
StlenVlr wrote:
rating changes randomly


I'm not sure I follow this part of your post. IGS is one of the least random rating systems out there. It's very easy to calculate the RP gained and lost from games. How are you using random here?

KGS is probably the most random. Tygem is very stable. Wbaduk you can calculate but has a few more variables based on streaks and rank you're at that can make it more difficult. I would place IGS as the easiest to figure out.


Dunno, I haven't played on IGS for a long time, but when I started out, I always remember that I spend 100 first games at IGS 30k rating. I then came to KGS, and started playing, and when I was asked about rank, I told I was 30k. I then played and utterly demolished some KGS 16k player. Ever since that, I've always been kinda suspicious of any ratings IGS does.

The main problem I see is that they demand so many games to be played for rating to change. It's something like 40 straight wins to rise 1 step. Rating reacting so slowly to changes makes it kinda pointless to try to make the rating reflect your own playing skill, and you sorta learn to accept that rating doesn't really tell much more than a very rough ballpark of skill a player has. Which is a pretty effective way to make you stop caring about your rating and just get you playing.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #27 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:00 am 
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StlenVlr wrote:
Dunno, I haven't played on IGS for a long time


This is probably the problem with the information. Many changes have been made over the years.

StlenVlr wrote:
The main problem I see is that they demand so many games to be played for rating to change. It's something like 40 straight wins to rise 1 step. Rating reacting so slowly to changes makes it kinda pointless to try to make the rating reflect your own playing skill, and you sorta learn to accept that rating doesn't really tell much more than a very rough ballpark of skill a player has. Which is a pretty effective way to make you stop caring about your rating and just get you playing.

http://pandanet-igs.com/communities/pandanet/60
http://pandanet-igs.com/communities/pandanet/64

I think it's slower than most servers, but you get about 100 points per win. 8d to 9d does take a lot of games, but most people will not need +40 wins.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #28 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:25 pm 
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I do find as someone mentioned that you will play someone who has 15000 games. Of course this has to be a Go Salon or school account in Japan.

I find the competition different than KGS. The openings seem better, at least to my beginner mind. I've never had anyone leave or abandon a game on IGS but on KGS, it has happened. It is much easier to find a game on IGS than KGS. Many times on KGS, I've only been able to play my friend. No one seems to want to play you if you do not have a solid rating.

One of the positives for KGS is the review features. It makes going over games and lessons much easier.


Few Questions on Rank:

Perhaps, the players on IGS are not as rank conscious as some KGS players. This is why it may be easy to find a game on IGS vs. KGS. Is "Rank Concern" a Western phenomenon? Do most Eastern Amateur players concern themselves with rank? Living in the West, I have no idea on this question. Hopefully, someone can answer it.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #29 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:41 pm 
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[quote="Justin2013"]I do find as someone mentioned that you will play someone who has 15000 games. Of course this has to be a Go Salon or school account in Japan.[/auote]
I personally know people who have like 10000 or 12000 games played with a single account, and they are not a school or salon. So maybe 15000 is not such a stretch. I am not sure you can "obviously" assume that they are school or something.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #30 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:59 pm 
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To agree with Bantari, I could easily believe these accounts are single player accounts of retired people who play a lot of go. There's no reason to assume shared accounts first.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #31 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:14 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
Justin2013 wrote:
I do find as someone mentioned that you will play someone who has 15000 games. Of course this has to be a Go Salon or school account in Japan.[/auote]
I personally know people who have like 10000 or 12000 games played with a single account, and they are not a school or salon. So maybe 15000 is not such a stretch. I am not sure you can "obviously" assume that they are school or something.



Usually the accounts that had that many games has been around 17k. I would assume after that many games that there would be some improvement. That's what I get for assuming.

It is interesting that someone could have that many games. If you are on the same server account for four years and played 10 games a day, it would be possible to have 15000 game .

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #32 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:20 pm 
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Justin2013 wrote:
Bantari wrote:
Justin2013 wrote:
I do find as someone mentioned that you will play someone who has 15000 games. Of course this has to be a Go Salon or school account in Japan.[/auote]
I personally know people who have like 10000 or 12000 games played with a single account, and they are not a school or salon. So maybe 15000 is not such a stretch. I am not sure you can "obviously" assume that they are school or something.



Usually the accounts that had that many games has been around 17k. I would assume after that many games that there would be some improvement. That's what I get for assuming.

It is interesting that someone could have that many games. If you are on the same server account for four years and played 10 games a day, it would be possible to have 15000 game .

Truth be told, most of the players I know with such high numbers play a lot of 9x9 games, so that's why. It is yeast to squish 10,20, even 30 small board games a day. They are also usually stronger than 17k, but not always.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #33 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Justin2013 wrote:
Usually the accounts that had that many games has been around 17k. I would assume after that many games that there would be some improvement. That's what I get for assuming.


Many of the opponents that I play on igs seem to play very quickly, and I expect have less interest in improving. Many people are just playing for fun and not for trying to get to higher ranks.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #34 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:19 pm 
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StlenVlr wrote:
The main problem I see is that they demand so many games to be played for rating to change....
This is a common complaint about KGS, but not about IGS. Promotion in IGS should be quite rapid at low ranks, but does become more difficult at higher ranks. At a rank of {16K, 1D, 8D} it should take roughly {10, 27, 55} wins to be promoted.

IGS ratings are more predictable than KGS ratings. In IGS, you can track your (win-loss) difference and watch your rating respond directly to this difference. If you are so inclined, you can determine ahead of time how many more wins you need for promotion. KGS on the other hand bases promotion on a complicated algorithm which has more to do with win/loss ratio than win-loss difference.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #35 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:29 am 
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mitsun wrote:
StlenVlr wrote:
The main problem I see is that they demand so many games to be played for rating to change....
This is a common complaint about KGS, but not about IGS. Promotion in IGS should be quite rapid at low ranks, but does become more difficult at higher ranks. At a rank of {16K, 1D, 8D} it should take roughly {10, 27, 55} wins to be promoted.

IGS ratings are more predictable than KGS ratings. In IGS, you can track your (win-loss) difference and watch your rating respond directly to this difference. If you are so inclined, you can determine ahead of time how many more wins you need for promotion. KGS on the other hand bases promotion on a complicated algorithm which has more to do with win/loss ratio than win-loss difference.


I have just started out at IGS with 2 wins at 16 kyu provisional rank. If IGS requires 10 wins to be promoted to a higher rank,
this would let me re-think about whether it is worth investing that much time on IGS to get correct rank.

I used to spend lots of time at KGS to get rank to 7 kyu last year, then let the account idle for couple of months. Then after I re-login to KGS and found that I was de-ranked down to provisional rank and basically lost my rank there. I kind of gave up on KGS because of huge commitment required to maintain a rank at KGS.

The best ranking system seems to be DGS. There is a large amount robots there from dan level to kyu level to allow a fast rank adjustment. I would say probably 2 wins will allow a user to be promoted to a higher rank and there is no provisional rank at DGS. By playing with robots at DGS, I would say only a week is needed to get proper ranking at DGS. But DGS does not offer live games and players need to go elsewhere for that.

OGS ranking is OK for me but not ideal. It appears to be slower than DGS to get proper higher rank for me there. But still OGS ranking definitely does not requires 10 wins to have higher rank. maybe 3 to 4 wins to get 1 stone higher rank. I think OGS rank will not be forfeited even if I am inactive for couple of months. OGS has its problems too with confusing 4 different kind of ranking: overall, bliz, live, correspondence. This is confusing and bad. OGS ranking will be significantly improved if they only offer 2 kinds of ranking: correspondence and live rankins by merging bliz with live and eliminate the overall rankings.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #36 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:43 am 
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I actually like what I see on IGS for the automatch feature and the 5 minutes 25 moves setting, much better than OGS time settings.

But the commitment required to get rank promoted at IGS feels too much. Maybe that is why there is so much sandbaggers at IGS claimed by others, IGS people gave up on proper ranking and just play at improper kyu level. It may be the fault of slow ranking adjustment rather than the sandbaggers themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #37 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:17 am 
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Shoreline wrote:
I actually like what I see on IGS for the automatch feature and the 5 minutes 25 moves setting, much better than OGS time settings.


OGS also has the option to use Canadian time. When you are creating a game, you can choose to make a custom game, and pick the time control that you want (you can also choose Fisher...).

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #38 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Shoreline wrote:
Maybe that is why there is so much sandbaggers at IGS claimed by others, IGS people gave up on proper ranking and just play at improper kyu level. It may be the fault of slow ranking adjustment rather than the sandbaggers themselves.


IGS ranks actually respond a bit more quickly than has been described here. In the first 20 games, your rank is provisional, and it adjusts every 5 games. After that, your rank increases (decreases) a half rank for every 5 net wins (losses) between 17k and 12k. So, if you start out at 17k, wins 6 games and losses 1 (assuming properly handicapped games), your rank will go up to 17k+. Between 12k and 7k, it takes 6 net wins.

In my experience, slow adjustment does not explain the inconsistent ranks of opponents. I often check the rank histories of opponents, and it is fairly common for players to be playing 2-3 ranks below their highest ranks. Obviously, people's ranks fluctuate, but some of these patterns seem quite suspicious. See here for a particularly egregious example: viewtopic.php?p=216570#p216570.

Plus, I'm sure that anyone who plays on IGS has experienced players who resign after having just been matched, having just played the minimum 2 moves necessary to establish a game as official, or having achieved a decisive lead. When someone resigns an auto-matched game, the system penalizes the player with half the value of a loss. So, if one wants to lower his rank by a half-rank, one simply needs to resign 10-12 games immediately after being matched. During a busy period, that would not take very long.

I really enjoy playing on IGS, but this is the one problem that I wish they would fix.

EDIT: In fairness to the IGS staff, I should also note that it is not at all obvious to me how one could easily fix this issue. Even a policy like removing accounts that clearly manipulate their rank wouldn't work because banned users can easily just create new accounts.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #39 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:44 pm 
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BlindGroup wrote:
IGS ranks actually respond a bit more quickly than has been described here. In the first 20 games, your rank is provisional, and it adjusts every 5 games. After that, your rank increases (decreases) a half rank for every 5 net wins (losses) between 17k and 12k. So, if you start out at 17k, wins 6 games and losses 1 (assuming properly handicapped games), your rank will go up to 17k+. Between 12k and 7k, it takes 6 net wins.

In my experience, slow adjustment does not explain the inconsistent ranks of opponents. I often check the rank histories of opponents, and it is fairly common for players to be playing 2-3 ranks below their highest ranks. Obviously, people's ranks fluctuate, but some of these patterns seem quite suspicious. See here for a particularly egregious example: http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.ph ... 70#p216570.

Plus, I'm sure that anyone who plays on IGS has experienced players who resign after having just been matched, having just played the minimum 2 moves necessary to establish a game as official, or having achieved a decisive lead. When someone resigns an auto-matched game, the system penalizes the player with half the value of a loss. So, if one wants to lower his rank by a half-rank, one simply needs to resign 10-12 games immediately after being matched. During a busy period, that would not take very long.

I really enjoy playing on IGS, but this is the one problem that I wish they would fix.

EDIT: In fairness to the IGS staff, I should also note that it is not at all obvious to me how one could easily fix this issue. Even a policy like removing accounts that clearly manipulate their rank wouldn't work because banned users can easily just create new accounts.


5 to 6 net wins for half stone rank promotion from 17k to 7k range is still same as one said, 10 net wins for 1 stone rank increase. That is very slow.

In DGS, I actually scored 2 kyu promotion from 11 kyu to 9 kyu recently by one handicap game win against a robot. DGS ranking has its problem, volatility, a player can easily +- 1 kyu within one week, sometimes up or down 2 kyu level within just several games loss or win. But still, a trend usually form on DGS rank and it is accurate and up to date.

I am actually at loss on IGS for recent 2 games. I basically slaughtered 7 kyu+ and 15 kyu established ranked players on proper handicap. Based on the game record, I would say 7 kyu at IGS is only equivalent of teen digit kyu at DGS, say 15 kyu, the 15 kyu IGS player was beginner, maybe 23 kyu at DGS know very little concept of influence or Fuseki. At OGS on live or bliz, I was at much tougher time on 7 kyu or 15 kyu players there. Not sure why people are claiming sandbaggers at IGS. I saw the players rank at IGS at kyu level was inflated.

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 Post subject: Re: About done with IGS
Post #40 Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:01 pm 
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Played a few bliz game at OGS, got bliz rank bumped from 17kyu to 16kyu with only 4 games, 3 wins, 1 loss.
OGS require 120 points for each kyu rank, one game loss or win is about 40 points. I think net win requirement to be promoted at OGS is only at 3 games.

This is a lot quicker than IGS. I think I am going to stick with OGS, I am not going to play at IGS that much, mainly because of this ranking requirement burden.

I believe sandbagger issue at IGS can be explained partially by the ranking system. Lots of people like me won't treat IGS account seriously, maybe couple of times a year to play at IGS for a few games at 16 kyu to 18 kyu. From other players points view, that would be sandbaggers. It is not intentional, mainly because
of unwillingness to invest efforts to get proper rank.

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