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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #261 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:31 pm
 Judan

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Uberdude wrote:
Every move played in the next 30 days, not past moves. And an amusing empty triangle is 2 rather than 1, not 2 as well as 1.

You could provide empty triangle payout as a function of the level of amusement:

Payout = \$1 (for the move) + f(A)

where A is a fraction between 0.01 and 1.0 representing your amusement from the empty triangle (0.01 is "meh", and 1.0 is "roflcopter"), and f maps the fraction directly to the corresponding dollar value.

For example, if you'd give the empty triangle 6.3 stars out of 10, the amusement would be 0.63, which is \$0.63, for a payout of \$1.63.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #262 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:32 pm
 Tengen

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Lowers the average. If he follows that scheme, he ought to map it onto the interval [0,2] or something, so that the expected average is \$1.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #263 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:58 pm
 Judan

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hyperpape wrote:
Lowers the average. If he follows that scheme, he ought to map it onto the interval [0,2] or something, so that the expected average is \$1.

Well, he can donate however he wants - I'm kind of joking.

But if he is going to pay \$1 for a move no matter what, and he pays \$2 for amusing empty triangles, then I think the expected payout is still between \$1 and \$2, depending on his sense of amusement.

In other words, let's say an empty triangle is played. Based on what Uberdude has already said, he'll pay at least \$1 since he said he'd pay \$1 for any move. But he might pay \$2 for an "amusing" empty triangle. So the payoff for empty triangle under the current conditions is either \$1 (empty triangle, but not amusing), or \$2 (empty triangle - and amusing!).

I don't know how easily Uberdude is amused, and I also don't know how many empty triangles are coming up, so it's hard to say what the average expected payoff over time is going to be. But it'll still be between \$1 and \$2 (inclusive) for a given empty triangle.

The only difference with my scheme is that it allows Uberdude to quantify his amusement more specifically - it's not just "yes, amusing" or "no, not amusing", he can specify varying degrees of "somewhat amusing"...

I have a feeling I have too much free time today. I guess it's Friday.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #264 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:01 pm
 Tengen

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Kirby wrote:
...
I have a feeling I have too much free time today. I guess it's Friday.

Please allow me to relieve you of that problem: viewtopic.php?p=197425#p197425

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #265 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:25 pm
 Tengen

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Kirby wrote:
Well, he can donate however he wants - I'm kind of joking.
Well, I'm deadly serious, and you're wrong. He made a commitment, and I think your proposal doesn't fulfill the letter or the spirit of it! He said \$2 for an empty triangle. I'll compromise, and accept a sliding scale with an average of \$2, but nothing less.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #266 Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:10 pm
 Judan

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hyperpape wrote:
Well, I'm deadly serious, and you're wrong. He made a commitment, and I think your proposal doesn't fulfill the letter or the spirit of it! He said \$2 for an empty triangle. I'll compromise, and accept a sliding scale with an average of \$2, but nothing less.

As much as I'd like to be wrong, that's not what he said; he said that he'd pay \$2 for an amusing empty triangle:

Uberdude wrote:
Sure! And \$2 for amusing empty triangles.

So no matter how many empty triangles Joaz plays, Uberdude can define whether or not he thinks it's amusing. If he thinks none of them are amusing, to be consistent with his earlier statements, he'd only have to play \$1 for each empty triangle - they are moves - and they are empty triangles, but not "amusing empty triangles".

So an easily amused Uberdude would pay \$2 for any empty triangle, whereas an uneasily amused Uberdude would pay \$1 for most empty triangles (since he doesn't find them amusing). My (joking) suggestion was to quantify his level of amusement such that he could pay in proportion to his amusement for a given empty triangle (between \$1 and \$2, depending on how amusing).

Yes, you are correct that this may lead to a lower average payment than paying \$2 for every empty triangle. But that's not what Uberdude promised to. He promised to pay for amusing empty triangles.

And I'm sure, with discussions like these, Uberdude is more inclined to donate lots of money to Joaz's fund. Where else can you get this kind of entertainment?

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #267 Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:46 am
 Tengen

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You're right, I left amusing out of there. But I think my point of view still makes sense. Your proposal means that he donates less than \$1 for almost all empty triangles that are somewhat amusing, even those that are very amusing! Mine preserves the idea a typical amusing empty triangle is worth a dollar.

However, I may be beating a dead horse. I will bow out, and let Uberdude and the public decide whose point of view makes the most sense.

Edit: that's of course ignoring the \$1 per move baseline. Where I say \$1, read "\$1 for the empty triangle, in addition to the \$1 for making a move". Of course, I made this edit after Kirby posted...

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #268 Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:00 am
 Judan

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hyperpape wrote:
You're right, I left amusing out of there. But I think my point of view still makes sense. Your proposal means that he donates less than \$1 for almost all empty triangles that are somewhat amusing, even those that are very amusing! Mine preserves the idea a typical amusing empty triangle is worth a dollar.

However, I may be beating a dead horse. I will bow out, and let Uberdude and the public decide whose point of view makes the most sense.

No, my proposal preserves the dollar minimum per move:
Payout = \$1 (for the move) + f(A) (see above)

The \$1 is for the move, and the function f is what varies between 0 and 1. So the range of the function is from \$1 to \$2. The example I provided had 63% amusement, for a payout of \$1.63.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #269 Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:30 am
 Tengen

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Chop chop drmwc, only \$2 so far and 12 days left!

 This post by Uberdude was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #270 Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:37 pm
 Tengen

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...

`[go]\$\$Wc\$\$ -----------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O X . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . O O X X O . O X X . X . X . |\$\$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . O O X . X O . X . . O . . . |\$\$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |\$\$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . X . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |\$\$ | . O X O . O O O . O O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X X O . . . O X . . X O . X . . |\$\$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |\$\$ | . X O X B O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ --------------------------------[/go]`
...

Bump.

Drmwc, it is that time of the year again.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #271 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:31 pm
 Tengen

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It has been about 6 months since I moved.

DrMWC, are you still around?

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #272 Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:00 am
 Lives in gote

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E2.

`[go]\$\$Wc\$\$ -----------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O X . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . O O X X O . O X X . X . X . |\$\$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . O O X . X O . X . . O . . . |\$\$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |\$\$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . X . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |\$\$ | . O X O . O O O . O O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X X O . . . O X . . X O . X . . |\$\$ | . . . . O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |\$\$ | . X O X X O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O O W . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ --------------------------------[/go]`

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #273 Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:38 am
 Lives in gote

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Black's big group can almost certainly live. Balck should avoid dropping stragglers if possible.

But I should keep sente, and I think I can live at the top e.g. one line is

`[go]\$\$Bc\$\$ -----------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O X . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . O O X X O . O X X . X . X . |\$\$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . 2 3 . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . 4 5 . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . O O X . X O 8 X 9 . O . . . |\$\$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O 6 7 . O X . . |\$\$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . X . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |\$\$ | . O X O . O O O . O O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X X O . . . O X . . X O . X . . |\$\$ | . . . 1 O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |\$\$ | . X O X X O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ --------------------------------[/go]`

If this happens, I have a possible cut against the top middle black group. I can live with my group. I'm very thin, and it's all courting disaster, but it may win.

I need to be aggressive, as if everything lives everywhere, I don't have much territory.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #274 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:31 pm
 Tengen

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My opponent is back. It must be time for my yearly move.

I may need a few months to think about it.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #275 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:48 pm
 Judan

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
My opponent is back. It must be time for my yearly move.

I may need a few months to think about it.

_________________

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #276 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:54 pm
 Tengen

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I'll play fast. Maybe he won't notice that his clock is running and I can win on time.
Actually, a few minutes thought shows this move to be forced. It connects the loose stones at 8c/d/e, and threatens to make easy life if he tenukis.

`[go]\$\$Wc\$\$ -----------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O X . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . O O X X O . O X X . X . X . |\$\$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . O O X . X O . X . . O . . . |\$\$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |\$\$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . X . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |\$\$ | . O X O . O O O . O O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X X O . . . O X . . X O . X . . |\$\$ | . . . B O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |\$\$ | . X O X X O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O O W . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ----------------------------------------[/go]`

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #277 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:17 pm
 Tengen

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@Observers:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
... a few minutes thought shows this move to be forced. It connects the loose stones at 8c/d/e, and threatens to make easy life if he tenukis...

The implied idea here is that I am ahead by a minimum of 10 points. If I round his territory upwards, the best I can see is about 40; if I round mine down, the worst is about 50 ( that includes losing all of the lower left side ). So his only winning strategy is to kill something.
A possible distant second is to try to make a few points in every yose encounter.

My strategy, therefore, is the opposite: to keep everything alive. A secondary strategy might be to not lose too much in yose.

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #278 Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:04 pm
 Lives in gote

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`[go]\$\$Wc\$\$ -----------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O X . O O X . O . X . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . O O X X O . O X X . X . X . |\$\$ | . . . . . X O . X X O . W . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . X . X O . . . O . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . O O X . X O . X . . O . . . |\$\$ | . X . X . . . . . . X O . . . O X . . |\$\$ | . O . . X O . . . . X . X . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O O . O X X X , X . . . O , O . . |\$\$ | . O X O . O O O . O O . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X X O . . . O X . . X O . X . . |\$\$ | . . . X O O X . . . . . O O . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |\$\$ | . X O X X O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O O O . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ----------------------------------------[/go]`

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 Post subject: Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck #279 Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:09 am
 Lives in gote

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I think I may actually be ahead in time now! (Probably not if anyone is actually counting, though.)

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