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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #81 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:26 am 
Lives with ko

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Well, since O17 has been in my considerations since at least 2 moves ago, it does not come unexpected that Kirby plays there.
I did not expect that this was so bad for me, as you say.
But then, I could not expect to know if, had I played there first, the consequences had not been bad either.

Please go on commenting, calling it small talk, advice or teaching.

I've heard there are non-posting kibitzers out there (yes, Ferran, you!) who enjoy following your advice.

Right now, I'm not sure if I want to read comments.
I'm finding them too overwhelming.
But I will come back to them after the game, and probably after some time again, to see if I understand more.
Thank you!!

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #82 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:41 am 
Lives with ko

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I considered
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . 8 6 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but that would be mirroring J17.

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #83 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:07 am 
Honinbo

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@Jika

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Inefficient
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W B X . . X B W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yes, in this position the two :bc: - :wc: exchanges would be questionable for Black. White has been strengthened in exchange for very little profit for Black.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #84 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:26 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 9 . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I'm not sure if this is the most severe move, but I'm trying to be patient here (this is unlike me - I'm typically impatient).

My idea is simple - keep my groups somewhat connected (they can be cut, but they get stronger if black tries to cut now). Surrounding the outside like this has the additional benefit of threatening the corner - black's lone 4-4 stone in the top left looks lonely, and could be in danger of living. If white captures the entire top left, that's a good chunk of points this early in a 9-stone game.

Another thought that one might consider after a double approach would be to invade to get the points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's actually not that bad, and could be better than what I played in the game - I had a hard time deciding which one to play, but decided on the influence in the end.

Here's one possible 3-3 variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 4 . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It could also go like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 1 2 . . W X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 3 X . . W . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 4 . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . 0 5 O . . . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And so on - there's still aji to play around 'a' to help the white stones... So I don't think the 3-3 is necessarily a bad option.

But I still like influence in a handicap game like this, so in the end, I prefer the move I played in the game.

It's a tough choice, though. The 3-3 is very tempting.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness


This post by Kirby was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #85 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:26 am 
Judan

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@all
I think it's instructive to look at this position topologically, that is in terms of large scale connection and separation of stones/groups. Jika now has 3 topological blobs, whilst Kirby has 2.
Attachment:
Screenshot_20190912_135649.jpg
Screenshot_20190912_135649.jpg [ 226.23 KiB | Viewed 267 times ]


Connecting your stones into fewer blobs is better. Compare with one of Bill's suggestions for a classic calm response. 2 for black, 2 for White.
Attachment:
Screenshot_20190912_141109.jpg
Screenshot_20190912_141109.jpg [ 225.64 KiB | Viewed 267 times ]


And if Jika played one of her ideas to answer the double approach. 2 and a bit for black (as top left isn't strongly connected to the rest). 3 for White.
Attachment:
Screenshot_20190912_143214.jpg
Screenshot_20190912_143214.jpg [ 255.66 KiB | Viewed 267 times ]


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Kirby
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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #86 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:11 am 
Dies with sente

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Jika wrote:
I've heard there are non-posting kibitzers out there (yes, Ferran, you!) who enjoy following your advice.


Moi? I'd never! You slander me, sir!

Nah, it's just that I don't think I can give anything but questions that might derail the focus from the game.

Take care.

_________________
玄 之 玄

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #87 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:25 am 
Honinbo

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Ferran wrote:
Jika wrote:
I've heard there are non-posting kibitzers out there (yes, Ferran, you!) who enjoy following your advice.


Moi? I'd never! You slander me, sir!

Nah, it's just that I don't think I can give anything but questions that might derail the focus from the game.

Take care.


Go ahead and ask. :)

Make them hidden and you won't derail anything. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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Post #88 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:56 am 
Honinbo
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Test renderings of post 85 boards:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 3 :black: blobs ; 2 :white: blobs
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . ? C C C C C C ? . . . . . |
$$ | . . C C C ? O X X . . X X O ? C C . . |
$$ | . . C X C ? O C C X C C ? O ? X C . . |
$$ | . . C C C ? ? . . C . ? O ? O X . C . |
$$ | . . ? O ? O ? . . . . . ? O X X O C . |
$$ | . . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? C . . C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C X C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . C . |
$$ | . . . X C C C C C X C C C C . X . C . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . X C C C C C X C C C C C X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 2 :black: blobs ; 2 :white: blobs
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . ? . . C . . . ? . C C . . |
$$ | . . . X . ? O ? C X C . ? O ? X C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . ? . . C . ? O ? O X . C . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . ? O X X O C . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . ? C . . C . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C X C . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . C . . C . |
$$ | . . . X C C C C C X C C C C . X . C . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . X C C C C C X C C C C C X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 2+ :black: blobs ; 3 :white: blobs
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . ? C C . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . C . ? O X X C . . . ? . C C . . |
$$ | . . C X C ? O ? C X C . ? O ? X C . . |
$$ | . . . . C X ? . . C . ? O ? O X . C . |
$$ | . . ? O ? . . . . . . . ? O X X O C . |
$$ | . . . ? . . . . . . . . . ? C . . C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C X C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . C . |
$$ | . . . X C C C C C X C C C C . X . C . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . X C C C C C X C C C C C X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #89 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:20 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 126
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 12
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 9 . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At least one benefit is that I am learning the diagram code a bit...

I would have preferred to find a move how I can change the separation of my groups (right being cut off). I might try a move to try to get the upper right corner, but that is close combat... :rambo:

So, now I'm testing Kirby's nice territory a bit. A toe in the water ("Jaws"...).

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #90 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:18 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My natural inclination while playing go is to resist my opponent's plan. My opponent wants me to play 'A' so that he can play 'B'? Well, then I'll play 'C'! That'll show 'em! Maybe this could be categorized as fighting spirit, but it doesn't mean that it's always the best strategy. When my neighbor stops by my house and offers me a cake to eat, I'll take the cake - maybe it's a bad example with all of those calories.

Anyway, black's move is endgame-ish. It only has meaning if black continues:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 2 . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But in that case, it's just endgame. At that point, I can play a hanging connection to really eliminate aji in the corner - that's a good chunk of points for 6 stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, if it goes like this, I might decide on a tenuki, and play elsewhere:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 white tenuki and play somewhere else
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Anyway, long story short: Black's hane strengthens black's group, but it's already strong. So effectively, it's an endgame move. And I think it's too early to play endgame moves right now.

I could consider ignoring, but there's value in playing a separating move, at least initially here.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #91 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:24 pm 
Honinbo

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Unhidden after Jika's move.

Kirby wrote:
My natural inclination while playing go is to resist my opponent's plan.


My unnatural inclination is to let my opponent carry out his plan and to show that my plan is better. :cool:

In this case I answer, however. ;)

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 2 . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X , . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b2: looks slightly better to me.

@ Jika: Great minds think alike. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #92 Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:26 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 126
Liked others: 145
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've found no moves that would really be good for me in this skirmish.
But at least this one looks interesting.
I've considered

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

too, but I'd be in two fights at the same time then, including a ko, which, though typically go, is nothing I have ever played on 9x9. Very confusing.

I'm unhiding Kirby's comments regarding his second to last move (Kirby's comments only), and it is funny to see how he analyses the game / my possible moves totally differently than I do:
For me it was already a fact that he has all the upper left corner, as far as his picket fence goes around there, and that therefore it is neither possible nor wise to play inside his borders.
Maybe this is 9x9 mentality too (or just the knowledge I won't be able to win anything in close combat there).
Kirby's expected moves in there made no sense to me.
Ferran told me in our first game (not related to the Malkovich!) that people like 3-3 invasions. But I only know that, when invading or playing inside someones territory, I always get captured while frantically trying to make 2 eyes there...

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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Post #93 Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:03 am 
Honinbo
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@ Jika:
Quote:
I've considered
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
About your variation above:
Hint (a): White needs to control ALL 3 red spots to make (x) a real eye:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$--------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . X O . . . . . |
$$ . . C O C X . . . |
$$ . . O x O X . . . |
$$ . . C O X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If you atari with :b1:, did you expect White to connect ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$--------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . X O . . . . . |
$$ . . . O 1 X . . . |
$$ . . O . O X . . . |
$$ . . . O X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hint (b):
White may not connect. Example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$--------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . X O . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 O 1 X . . . |
$$ . . O 3 O X . . . |
$$ . . . O X X O . . |
$$ . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Result: you help W run out faster:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$--------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . . X O . . . . . |
$$ . . O O B X . . . |
$$ . . O X . X . . . |
$$ . . . O X X O . . |
$$ . . W . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #94 Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:32 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8627
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is proper to answer here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . O X X . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But:
1. I think it's slow for a 9-stone handicap.
2. This is a game for fun, and I want to move onto another part of the board.

I'm also curious to see how Jika will respond.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness


This post by Kirby was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Jika vs Kirby
Post #95 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:16 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 126
Liked others: 145
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Hi Kirby,

I'll be travelling and very busy from early tomorow morning until Saturday.
I hope I can get back to our game on Sunday!
Thanks!

_________________
I'm a complete beginner. Please be patient if my questions are stupid.
Please also keep in mind that I'm not a native speaker of English: I might seem impolite or unclear without intending to. Thanks for all help, it is much needed and much appreciated!

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