138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

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pancake
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by pancake »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
no explanation necessary
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
While I am very leery of making "automatic" moves pursuant to ez4u's warning, I feel like continuing here is important for helping my bottom left group.

One thing I am not entirely happy with this game- I felt like I was doing well in the first few moves, however white gained tonnes of territory, and the game now has an equal/polarised feeling where white has tonnes and tonnes of solid territory while black has tonnes of moyo (and cash is theoretically safer than moyo promises).
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by emerus »

both players:
Have you counted recently? If so, who do you think has the advantage?

How do you think the game will go in the next dozen moves or so?
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

My reckoning is/was: Black has a small territory on the left, a territory in the bottom right and a large moyo.

Conversely white seems to have about 52 points of territory and some prospects at gaining more points on bottom and right.

More fine reckoning:
If we say black's two territories are worth a bit over 15 points, Black's moyo must be worth 35-40 points more than what white gains in the rest of the game. This sounds like a lot, but really the top part of that moyo is essentially territory, so my impression is: black has significant potential, white is about 15 points up on the board.

Rather than being about winning or losing right now, I will simply ask from my moyo the number of points required to win: If this is too much, I will lose.

Edit: Right how it will go:

With sente, white will play a reduction that doubles as a large scale attack on K4 stones. Black will resist with his thickness and some weakness in white's bottom right group.
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by pancake »

I didn't get a notification you played a move already, so there goes my promise of making a move every day ;).
I think I have 3 choices here. a,b and possibly tenuki. Emerus: I counted last time, but I forgot, so I will count again before deciding which move to play.
BLACK:
lower left: 8
lower right: 13
upper side: 28 solid, but it will probably be 10-15 points bigger at least. So I'll count 15 extra here.
total: 64
WHITE:
upper left: 21
upper right: 12
lower left: 13
right side: ~6
TOTAL: ~52 + komi, 58.5
So in my opinion I'm still behind. As I was from the start. I should try an active approach now to gain territory and reduce his.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I think move a is really vulgar, this is what would happen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Doesn't look good for me


Option b is the most standard reply:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
But I feel like this is helping him.

So if those two possibilities suck, where should I play then? I should keep in mind that if I tenuki, a would be sente for him. I feel like playing b, but my group on the right doesn't look very thick yet. Yet I think I have to take some risk here, since I'm behind. By the way, I don't know if b is the best point. The only way I can choose a good reducing move in this kind of situation is by intuition. Sometimes that ends in utter failure, sometimes it just happens to be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . b . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

Checking the forums right before going to bed may lead to dangerous insomnia.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . l . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . m . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . a . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . b . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm leaning quite heavily towards 'a' after which I expect b, and then I can go back to investigating plays on eg. the right.

My initial thought was 'l', followed by 'm', followed by 'a' and also some thinking about attachments.
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

Sorry about my extreme tardiness.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
At some point here I seem to have lost -_-. I guess that was just a little inevitable. I'll try to incite a fight; maybe I will be lucky.
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by pancake »

Ah, he can still make something on the left. I think this game will be pretty hopeless for me from now on, have to win it on good endgame, if it comes to that. Anyway, if I don't jump out here, the game is over even sooner, so the move is obvious.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Chew Terr »

If both players claim to have lost, can I take the win? =P
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Jedo »

Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Magicwand »

Jedo wrote:
Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game
since i am unbiased here...
as of now the game is very close...
if i had to choose.....i will take black.
but i wont feel comfortable taking either black or white.
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by jts »

Jedo wrote:
Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game
I thought the exact same thing.
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by konfuzed »

Jedo wrote:
Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game
Hah, I'm so glad I'm not the only one thinking that. I think Malkovich games where the players have sharply conflicting interpretations of the board are the most fun to watch.
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'm not really planning to play 55 at L13, really. The scenario, as I see it:
1) I find something on the right that enables me to use my influence
or
2) I find a good place to resign
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yithril
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Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by yithril »

His last move is clearly in the wrong direction, I don't see where he is going to make territory with this attack. With his initial attack I thought he was going to make a center moyo, but now I don't know. I think White should walk into Black's potential, and then later connect to his right group. If Black had attacked from the left, White would just connect on dame.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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