138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post Reply
User avatar
Loons
Gosei
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by Loons »

If white decides to give up sente, eg. in top left (which I am not really expecting), this is what I am thinking about at the moment.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . l O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . W . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . 4 . X . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . b O . . . . O 3 . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
...Immediately take gote again myself! Brilliant, I know. Really, I was wondering what on earth I could play on bottom, and this is the idea I'm working on. The marked white stone is slightly weaker 'than normal' because I never peeped at 'x' and thus a fight on the bottom is more interesting for me. I didn't want to play a move close to my marked solid stones. I can treat 'a' and 'b' as miai to strengthen my leftern group.

I suppose I should pick up 'l' myself if it's still around after pancake's sente.

Still working on what becomes possible top left when white inevitably does not fix E18.

Vague suspicion the 3-3 is just still invadable in a bad-for-me-ish way.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------
$$ | . . . . . 4 .
$$ | 9 . 3 . O X .
$$ | . . 1 2 . X .
$$ | . . . O . . X
$$ | . 5 7 8 . . .
$$ | . 6 O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
User avatar
pancake
Dies with sente
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:02 am
Rank: EGF 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: pancake
Wbaduk: mictel
DGS: frappant
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by pancake »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . W . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I can think about tenuki'ing, but this would be his sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 3 X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
since the moves I discussed earlier are still miai (I think), I'll just play this huge move in the corner..
User avatar
gaius
Lives in gote
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:55 am
Rank: Dutch 2 dan
GD Posts: 56
KGS: hopjesvla
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by gaius »

Hidden until move 45:
Hmmm, I wonder whether this would've been better. I'd say it's pretty much sente due to the aji at 'a', which feels good to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This way white retains sente, no?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 X 6 O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
User avatar
Magicwand
Tengen
Posts: 4844
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 504 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by Magicwand »

for obs only:
i think both player is missing the point of this game.

below is my suggestion.
top is ok to tenuki and go where it is urgent...(bottom)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . B . . 3 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
User avatar
Solomon
Gosei
Posts: 1848
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:21 pm
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Location: Bellevue, WA
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 835 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by Solomon »

There's something about that last move that I don't like...it's profit, but I don't think it's big enough. I'd play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:w3: looks slow, but I feel it's a move that's bigger than it looks.
User avatar
ez4u
Oza
Posts: 2419
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:15 pm
Rank: Jp 6 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: ez4u
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 2354 times
Been thanked: 1337 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by ez4u »

Araban wrote:
There's something about that last move that I don't like...it's profit, but I don't think it's big enough. I'd play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:w3: looks slow, but I feel it's a move that's bigger than it looks.
I agree with Araban. White would like to do something at the bottom but I think the bottom-left White stones ended up over-concentrated. As a result, it seems hard to effectively act directly against the Black stone on the bottom. I think the upper right is the most urgent boundary between Black and White. If White plays there first, the Black top looks immediately over-concentrated in turn. If Black tries to pull out the single stone on the right, White can have fun attacking it and may create the opportunity to profitably attack the bottom stone as well. If Black let's the right side stone go, the White right side territory suddenly grows very large.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
User avatar
Loons
Gosei
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O 1 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Eh, I still like my plan from before (though I am not intending to stick to it religiously). I opted against picking up Q14 to (perhaps misguidedly) try and keep R11's options somewhat open on the right depending on what conditions my current play precipitates.

Also; no idea what to do with R11.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Play on the intersection of two moyo, threaten to pull it out?
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
User avatar
Aphelion
Lives in sente
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 pm
Rank: KGS 4 kyu
GD Posts: 227
KGS: Aphelion02
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Post by Aphelion »

I don't think Black should make that exchange and tenuki. Before Black was light and hard to attack, after the exchange I think there are less options to handle that stone.
User avatar
pancake
Dies with sente
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:02 am
Rank: EGF 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: pancake
Wbaduk: mictel
DGS: frappant
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by pancake »

Damn, this move actually has a followup if I tenuki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This seems to good for him, so I should definitely respond.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . Q . 1 . X . . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . c . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This would be most likely to happen of I extend up. It's not too bad but the marked white stone looks in a crappy place. He will possibly exchange a for b for the aji at c.

So maybe I should extend down?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . b . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This looks a lot better, eventhough it's bad for influence. I can still jump at a or play b. (Maybe he will play 2 low). These are the only possibilities I can think of. If he plays this without making the side extension it's really weird, so no further analysis needed here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
User avatar
Loons
Gosei
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

Sorry about the long wait.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Well, I feel like the edge of this moyo is very big, and not very gote (yet) anyway, I think.

I had failed to consider this descent. Black can make good-ish shape with respect to the centre, but not do that and close that skirt. I hope opting for "neither" wasn't a big mistake :P. My concern was that the following :b43: did not seem quite big enough with moves on eg. the right up for grabs, though this sequence seems a bit farcical somehow and I am perhaps mistaking it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black: 1 white: 0
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O 8 1 b X . . f . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . 6 5 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . c 7 4 O 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . d . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Edit: Followed by the letters, probably. Retrospectively, that move was probably sente (as well). Oops, d was a ko threat.
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
User avatar
pancake
Dies with sente
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:02 am
Rank: EGF 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: pancake
Wbaduk: mictel
DGS: frappant
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by pancake »

Hmmm, nice move. But I still think he should continue on the bottom after the exchange. So my first thought would be to play a. I think reducing around b is slow and small. c is also still big.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . a . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Let's examine a.. If black responds at a instead of 2, it's a good exchange and I will play on the left. So the only option would be like this. It looks really hard, but let's look at a few possibilities.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . 4 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . 3 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This is more or less a one way street, and it doesn't look good for me. I should play at a to connect, so he'll make his group facing the center safe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X 8 6 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . 7 5 O X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . a . . 4 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This looks promising. If 2 at a, 3 b 5. If he cuts at c, I can squeeze on the outside, make him capture my 2 stones and his 2 marked stones will be as good as dead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 b . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . Y . 3 X O a , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O Y . . c O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
But he can play like this instead, which is very bad for me :(.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . 2 X O 4 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . O X 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So this is the only option for me, I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 8 9 . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . 1 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . 4 O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 6 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Black 8 is overplay, since after a, he doesn't have the ladder at b. (4 at the marked stone)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . b O 3 O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X a O X Q 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X 8 5 X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . 7 6 X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So I guess I can play the keima I want to play!

Ah, by the way, if he tenukis:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
EEEExcelent for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . W . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
No problem, I suppose you had a valid reason ;)
User avatar
Loons
Gosei
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

Thanks. Hopefully I'll come up with a move by tomorrow.
The game is afoot!

Boring as it may be, a rough sgf of my immediate thoughts. This move is nicer than the third line move I think I suggested earlier.



One day I will read the post on how to upload SGFs.
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
User avatar
Loons
Gosei
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . W . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Well, my logic is as follows; a contact play here will strengthen my corner and white's outside. All my corner really wants is a little more eyespace. So, I'll take my eyespace, white can worry about being strong outside.
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
User avatar
pancake
Dies with sente
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:02 am
Rank: EGF 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: pancake
Wbaduk: mictel
DGS: frappant
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by pancake »

Sorry I'm being slow now, didn't have much time yet. And the situation requires some reading!
User avatar
pancake
Dies with sente
Posts: 85
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:02 am
Rank: EGF 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: pancake
Wbaduk: mictel
DGS: frappant
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Post by pancake »

I was thinking about the cuts at a and b. For the cut at a I need some preparation like the c-d exchange, but the cut doesn't seem promising to me. The cut for him on the lower side is fightable for me, plus he responded like a good submissive little boy already, so it shouldn't be too big. That's why I'll stick to my original plan of playing e.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Post Reply