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#235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=10021 |
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Author: | OtakuViking [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
Hello let's have a nice game! First malkovich nigiri Even |
Author: | VincentCB [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
Have a good game! I guess even. |
Author: | VincentCB [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
Here we go!
Not much to say yet. Depending on my feeling (and my opponent's move), I could make a high enlosure next instead of playing in an empty corner. |
Author: | OtakuViking [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
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Author: | moyoaji [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
I'm excited. VincentCB's game against Kirby was quite interesting. I was sad to see it end. Never seen OtakuViking's play before, but considering how close the player's are in level this should be a good match. If I were Vincent I would play hoshi in the upper right and transpose into a Low or High Chinese, but I'm not Vincent. I predict another 3-4 stone. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
Go Seigen's move, at least as of a few years ago. He likes the mukai komoku. So much so that he does not like . |
Author: | VincentCB [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
After 45 minutes (!) of thought (more like indecision...), I finally settled on this move. It works well with , both stones exerting power towards the top side; it is well placed to support a pincer after a white approach in the upper right. I aim at making a large scale structure on the top side, at either 'a' or 'b' below. This would make it difficult for white to approach either of the upper corner stones.
I expect the game to develop like this :
Other moves considered :
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Author: | OtakuViking [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
let's make it interesting. If I take the empty corner, he will enclose and it's a standard territorial game for him. |
Author: | VincentCB [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
White's move totally changes the nature of the game. There's no need to answer directly in the upper left. turns into a perfectly natural move. Consider the following move order :
It is perhaps going too far (especially at our level), but I would consider a questionable move and a natural answer. It is hard for white to approach the upper right now; both the one space and the keima approach will get pincered, and since white is outnumbered at the top I would welcome a fight there. Therefore, I expect some kind of pincer/wedge, or else an approach in the lower right. Either way, I feel confident about the game. |
Author: | OtakuViking [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
If I approach any of his other stones like with the cirled stone, he might play 6 instead. Letting him build a wall and extending from it with L17 is something I cannot allow. Besides, I have komi so why not play a solid game?
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Author: | moyoaji [ Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
I don't like . It seems to violate the "principle of opposing komokus" - which says that you don't play a 3-4 stone opposite your opponent's like that. Why? Because it makes that side of the board much larger and your opponent, not you, will get the first approach move on that large side. Vincent points out via tewari analysis that his becomes a natural move and says that is questionable. What he failed to mention is that had he played in the lower right, white would never have played his 3-4 that way. It makes the approach move more than natural. It makes the approach move ideal:
That being said, I don't like the that Vincent played in the game because it can make the top less interesting. By playing a 3-5 stone like that it makes the top side of the board smaller than it could be had he played a 3-4 or 4-4. So in that respect I will say that I feel white got tricked into this. Had white simply taken the 4th corner like normal I think he would have been in a better position than black. Instead, now I feel white is behind. I think a high enclosure of the upper right is the best move right now so that black can work to develop either the top or the right. If black does not enclose, white should approach the top right. |
Author: | VincentCB [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
My first idea was to enclose the upper right corner at below (or 'a' or 'b'), but I found the press at distasteful. I think it works well with the star point stone in the lower left. I am trying to diminish this stone's power.
Following in the game, if white tries the press:
Black can wedge around , greatly reducing the effectiveness of white's wall. It is hard for white to omit :
Black can play at and to make the white stones short of liberties. At the same time, radiates power towards the right side. This is good for black. Extending one space further would work better with the upper right corner, making a Chinese-like shape, but in this case it is too far :
For white's next move, I expect him to play on the right side since it looks like the biggest place. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he started a fight in the upper left. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
in the game is too low. But if Black encloses the top right corner, he does not like .
That's why God invented here. (Not that there is anything wrong with enclosing the top right corner. E. g.,
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Author: | moyoaji [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:52 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
Bill Spight wrote: (Not that there is anything wrong with enclosing the top right corner. E. g.,
Not to mention the fact that is still not dead. The 3-5 stone is surprisingly hard to kill. I suppose black was afraid of this:
But black's position seems fine here as neither player has played off of their own side. Again, black will get the first move elsewhere. Moves like x, y, and z all look fine to me. But, if black doesn't want to play that way, that is his choice. Responding to the diagonal isn't wrong even if it isn't necessary. --- What I really don't like about the move black played is the spacing. There is a 4-6 relationship. Why not go for a 5-5 relationship at 'a' for a psudeo mini Chinese thing or 3-7 at 'b' so that the actual joseki move is played? Maybe even try 'c' if he wants to make sure his position can be high. Basically, feels awkward and wishy-washy to me.
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Author: | OtakuViking [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
If I don't press black down, this will give him an excellent framework. His development feels natural. Next he can just pincer my approach. If he pincers my approach immediately, he can keep this in reserve. So I think it's better to eliminate this possibility from the board.
If black answers with a or b, then I can approach without worrying about E15
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Author: | VincentCB [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
As analyzed in my previous post. Let's see what he comes up with... |
Author: | OtakuViking [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
Probably a pincer |
Author: | VincentCB [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
This tenuki is a bit surprising. I think if white wanted to play this approach, he shouldn't have made the marked exchange in the upper left. White lost the flexibility to invade by making this exchange; now I have to make it look bad. At the same time, I'm thinking about balance: black's position is very low all over the board, so if I keep going for profit at the expense of influence, I might run into trouble later on. Time to think...
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Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
is tesuji.
The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary gives this as one continuation. White is thick. Black is low. |
Author: | VincentCB [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: #235 OtakuViking vs VincentCB |
Trigger :
Here's the plan:
Next white will extend at 'a' or 'b'. If white 'a' :
I have forcing moves around 'a', so I will try to build something on the bottom side. If white 'b' instead :
I don't have any forcing moves against his group now, so I will play on the left side, either an approach or a wedge around 'a'. Let's have a quick look at some other options. If black goes for the easy profit, something like this might develop:
Black's position is overall low and uninteresting, so I rejected that.
I looked at the outside attachment and the high pincer, but white has sente moves in the upper left to break any ladders, so I thought it might be a bit risky. |
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