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 Post subject:
Post #41 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:14 am 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8774
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 331
Was liked: 2053
GD Posts: 312
With :w23: = :wc: maybe the real game starts. :)
One idea for B may be :b1: kosumi, aiming to gobble up
the two :ws: stones starting with the (a) wedge.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . @ . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O a @ . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline
 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #42 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:19 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1341
Location: Finland
Liked others: 47
Was liked: 125
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
I'm thinking of these responses:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g W f . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . d . X c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a could lead to something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


after which white's moyo on the upper center starts to look quite formidable.

b and c both threaten to connect underneath and could lead to something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . W 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White could also slide to the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


before choosing the continuation.

Perhaps I could ignore it at first?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . W 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


d should work quite well with my lower right moyo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


One question is, can I do this first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or will white invent something nasty against my Q10 instead of answering?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 6 4 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Difficult. Could something like this work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 W 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here white gets to live on the side but I get outside influence to counterbalance his moyo.

However, my corner may be in danger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I should be ok:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . X 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Outside attachment could lead to something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 W 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which connects and gives me territory on the side, but OTOH white's top centre is really impressive

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Post #43 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:33 am 
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tj86430 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 c 2 b . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Shape problem: if :b5: (a) and :w6: connects (b), then :b7: (c) wedges.

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #44 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:30 am 
Judan

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Twice tj86430 makes the same shape mistake

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 W 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


6 is better to capture. Then he can easily jump to r15 or r9 to make eyespace. Very occasionally connect is better than capture but instinct should be capture. An example of the aji of uncaptured stone: in

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . X 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


he misses that 3 simply extends at 4 and captures all of white.

Same mistake with the ponnuki the other way round here, 6 should capture:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 W 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #45 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:37 pm 
Gosei

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DJLLAP, I will try to post my next move later today. I'm sorry about the delay.

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Post #46 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:57 pm 
Honinbo
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Uberdude wrote:
Twice tj86430 makes the same shape mistake
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 W 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
6 is better to capture.

Same mistake with the ponnuki the other way round here, 6 should capture:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 W 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
( For beginners. )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 W 1 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 W 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
( For beginners. )
It's tricky to know when to ponnuki and when to connect.
Like many other aspects in Go, this is not an either-or situation.
Rather, it's more like a continuum:
People around 10 kyu have their understanding of this;
people around 1 dan have their understanding of this;
higher dan people have their understanding of this, and so on. :)

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Post #47 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:11 am 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really don't know what's best here, but this seems quite natural. I think he needs to jump too (or play something like P13), otherwise I believe I can kill his invasion. Then I can perhaps make my corner a bit more secure with Q18.


BTW, I'm delighted that we have so many high-caliber kibitzers

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Post #48 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:10 am 
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tj86430 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I really don't know what's best here, but this seems quite natural. I think he needs to jump too (or play something like P13), otherwise I believe I can kill his invasion. Then I can perhaps make my corner a bit more secure with Q18.
W can already consider attacking with (a), etc.

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Post #49 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:30 pm 
Lives in gote

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What a calm reply. If he keeps his cool like this the whole game, it may be difficult for me to come back. I will need to think about this next move some.

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #50 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:48 pm 
Lives in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If my reading s correct, I should be able to severely attack the corner, or break into his moyo on the right side.

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #51 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:07 pm 
Judan

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With the top side joseki white often exchanges the two marked stones if he wants to attack the top right corner. Obviously white loses out in the top left corner with this exchange (but doesn't need to answer, the aji of black at a is resistable with g16 and cut though white is thin here so black can easily come into the left with c14 for example) but gains power on the right, fixing the black wedge at n15.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a O . . . . O W O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Normally the wedge goes like this which connects black's corner and top groups with white building thickness (I took away a few stones to make it simple) (note that white can still just live with top right 3-3 but additional black stones on the right could make it killable):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X 3 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now it could be that the top right corner is under such a severe attack white could consider exchanging like this but that's a big gamble and the corner had better die after white gets broken in the centre. I showed just some vaguely plausible continuation on the right to get the corner weak

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm25 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O 0 O . 6 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm35 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X 1 . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . 6 O X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course if the wedge at 34 means the corner dies black can just answer to make his corner live (r13 is quite a problem, maybe 33 needed to defend that).

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #52 Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:48 am 
Gosei

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Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Thinking...

At first I was going to play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But then I started wondering whether I could cut after all:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this there a plenty of choices, and I have a hard time figuring out whether some of them are really bad for me.

This might be problematic:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X 6 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

perhaps this would be ok continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 6 X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White gets a huge upper center, but I get very large left side and although my moyo takes a hit I have respectable lower left as well. Perhaps I have to count a bit.

But white may choose this instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Who will come out ahead?

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #53 Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:50 am 
Honinbo

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In a three stone game, it is generally White who plays for variations. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #54 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:22 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1341
Location: Finland
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Was liked: 125
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I decided that cutting, although it would make life interesting, is far too risky.

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #55 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:40 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sorry about the delay. I am in the midst of moving and selling half of my stuff, so I might not be as regular for a couple of weeks.

Gotta keep things solid. There are still plenty of invasion/reduction points.

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #56 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:41 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1341
Location: Finland
Liked others: 47
Was liked: 125
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No problem. I just started my vacation, so in theory I have a lot of time for this for about two weeks (then I'm off to a couple of trips), but in practice vacation can be a lot more hectic than work...

I guess P9 is playable as well, but I think someone has told me that this is better. I don't know if it is, and if it is, I don't know why.

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #57 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:57 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6361
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OGS: Uberdude 7d
@tj

p9 would be a mistake. Can you find how white would take advantage? There was another good move for black here though.

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #58 Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:46 am 
Gosei

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@Uberdude

Uberdude wrote:
p9 would be a mistake. Can you find how white would take advantage? There was another good move for black here though.

On thing that comes to my mind is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Which means B would have to play 2 @ 3.

Might the other good move for B be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #59 Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:06 am 
Judan

Posts: 6361
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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
@tj

Exactly, p9 is a mistake because it means you can't block s9 at s8. And yes descend is the other way to defend the cut/stop white s9. The idea is it is trying to make your existing stone at o10 efficient: with your solid connection it's a bit inefficient now (but descend is less solid).

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 Post subject: Re: #237 DJLLAP vs tj86430
Post #60 Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:05 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
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Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure what the best course was here. All of the below points were considered. I decided to go with "A" because it makes me feel safe and warm.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Black: 0 , White: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X X X . O . . a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . O . O . . b c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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