#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

SoDesuNe · **#121**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

topazg · **#122**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · **#123**

SoDesuNe · **#124**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 8 . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EdLee · **#125**

Joaz Banbeck · **#126**

EdLee · **#127**

EdLee · **#128**

ez4u · **#129**

topazg · **#130**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

SoDesuNe · **#131**

EdLee · **#132**

Bill Spight · **#133**

EdLee wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Well,

wants to develop at :w42:

, but guess who gets there first.

Don't let the double keima get away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Whereas,

here has possibilities for development. I think that it is Tennozan. (See http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tennozan ). As for the weakness on the top side, as Black I would be confident of being able to handle it.

Edit: To be clear, I think that White can make gains there.

The hanging connection is thick, but it just makes the double keima more important.

Uberdude · **#134**

ez4u · **#135**

drmwc · **#136**

To add a dissenting voice to the debate:
With black, I would seriously consider playing the slow diagonal connection. I like solid, aji-free positions - they let me overplay elsewhere! The sequence below appears to me to be viable for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 1 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . . . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . 2 . Y . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

With a solid move like black 1 above, black can hack around fearlessly in white's moyo.

Once he's lived, if he he has sente, if he still really want a moyo he can play at the triangled stone. Although I'd probably want to use sente to play the circled stone and (more or less) take the corner.

The reason I'm not definite this is the right approach is the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O 2 6 1 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . O X 4 5 9 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X 2 7 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If the move at 1 is sufficiently sente, black can reasonably claim the aji in that area is sort of under control. (If the ladder becomes good for white, black can sac some stuff and emerge intact, as shown. There is some eccetnricity in that my diagram has 2 white 2s - the first lives, the second cuts with the benefit of a favourable ladder.) However, white should tenuki 1 currently - getting the timing right is hard.

Uberdude · **#137**

@drmwc:

drmwc · **#138**

Uberdude:

Uberdude wrote:

@drmwc:

Interesting. But if black's going to take gote here wouldn't it have been better to not give white h18 in the first place? This is quite a big territorial loss, but the hanging connection is more eye-rich and a bit further to the right so that area is harder to invade now. (35 could also be at a which creates some aji in the left side, and 34 could do something against corner first but eventually white will connect and black will live). Of course the fact some now-gone line is preferable doesn't mean it's not a good move now, but it's rather admitting defeat. Then again admitting you made a mistake and being patient is a valuable skill in Go I could sometimes do with more...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I completely agree that black's approach has been supoptimal, and lost a few points. But so has white's:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O O . 9 . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . 4 . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

28 seems better as the solid connection, for example.

Going back:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O 5 4 . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X a . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black 23 isn't joseki, so could well be an overplay. (I actually think it may be quite a good move.) However, White's moves didn't exploit it at all - as played, black gets a useful wall. lives in the corner, and white doesn't get much territory. (My preference was the sequence shown, which gives black less help. Playing directly at a may also be good, but it's hard to read out after white wedges. This isn't completely clear-cut - black has a number of ways to cuts in the diagram which may become good moves.)

Compare the game to a standard joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O O . . 7 . . 9 . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White has more territory here than in the game, and black has less. Black's main consolation is that the marked white stone may be a bit over-concentrated, but that also is true in the actual game.

So, in summary, I think black's actually doing quite well here, and can afford the slow connection.

I may be wrong, of course!

Aidoneus · **#139**

Still in suspense...

SoDesuNe · **#140**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm40 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X 1 O . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O X . 2 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

#239 SoDesuNe vs topazg

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