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Post #101 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:57 am 
Honinbo
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How about this peep instead of :b27: ? It does not give W any choices for the connect.
Still, W has the option of Bill's variation to tenuki and take the double keima...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #102 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:01 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 :w40: at 'a'
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 8 a 1 X 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

That's the plan or does he really want to play Ko?

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

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 Post subject: Re:
Post #103 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:11 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
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Liked others: 436
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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
EdLee wrote:
How about this peep instead of :b27: ? It does not give W any choices for the connect.
Still, W has the option of Bill's variation to tenuki and take the double keima...


One downside is later if white invades at the shape weakness here with 4 and black separates it then if he takes a liberty with 4 1 becomes inefficient and if 4 is at a then he didn't take a liberty.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 2 1 5 4 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is better for black (though white may invade at a instead now):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 2 . 5 4 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


P.S. I don't like black's proposal of cutting on dame for 33, the capture at 34 is big for points and eyes and afterwards black's outside is thin and short of liberties. Yes he gets the corner alive in sente, but the price is high .

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #104 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:23 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #105 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:25 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe it's better to play this first. Chances are I can defend the corner in Sente?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

:w34: here is not so nice. Or is it a Semeai?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 0 6 5 7 . 1 X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Looks Seki-esk to me. Possibly with Sente for Black, so I can get 'a'?. But is it good for me? Corner turns into zero points and White got his side endgame. I got potential at the top though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 9 6 5 7 . 1 X 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There is this of course.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 5 4 X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 6 . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But this Ko does not work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 4 X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Something like this? ^^

Gotta go for now : D




post scriptum:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 3 . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uhh, this seems devastating.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 4 X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 3 . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 8 6 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Not so good for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 3 . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Not so good for Black? Or is still a Seki?


I know, why I wanted to defend my corner... ^^

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Post #106 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:08 am 
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SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm40
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Looks Seki-esk to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 9 O 5 0 7 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . 6 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 2 X O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 O X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | X X X 1 X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 4 O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm15
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O 1 O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | O O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

B wins the ko and kills ?

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #107 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:11 am 
Lives in gote
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Ed:

Here seems better for White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Next, if B wants to kill:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O 1 . O 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | X X X 5 X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 8 O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 6 2 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Seems to be seki. Not all moves are necessary, and W can tenuki at various points and still have seki.

So it may be more fun to B to start operations in the first diagram with a move at 2 e.g.:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I suspect it's no improvement - both sides have no eyes and there are a reaonable number of shared liberties, which tends to result in a seki. But at least this way B is more likely to get sente.

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #108 Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:48 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 B . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 3 X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The marked stone also has this "problem".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe I should just play this? But if White just connects, there is still a Ko in the corner, isn't there?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 4 . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X W O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 5 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So, kind of following the original plan and playing like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 7 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 8 . 1 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or still Ko?...If Black wins White can still connect his stones...

Troublesome :P

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Post #109 Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:11 am 
Honinbo
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Hi drmwc,
drmwc wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Thanks for the :w2: placement.
I had a feeling it may make a difference, but was lazy. :)

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #110 Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:41 am 
Gosei
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In the middle of moving, might take a few more days - sorry!

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #111 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:12 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Everything else just feels passive. And I also forgot most of the variations I drew already ^^

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Post #112 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:51 am 
Honinbo
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Hmm… cap race.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . 8 . 6 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 4 5 O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #113 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:05 am 
Judan

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EdLee wrote:
Hmm… cap race.


That doesn't work for black, a 'Belgian' ko.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 0 8 . 6 c 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a 9 7 4 5 O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

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Post #114 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:12 am 
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Couldn't find Belgian ko at Sensei's ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W B gets gote ?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 5 . O X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 8 X . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #115 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:21 am 
Judan

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It's a shape that looks like a ko but isn't. A term coined by the French/Dutch as a joke on the Belgians supposedly being a bit dumb. There's a few mentions on SL but not as a full page. See half way down http://senseis.xmp.net/?UserCreatedGoSlang or http://senseis.xmp.net/?topic=2707. By extension a Belgian ko threat is a duff threat which you can answer by resolving the ko. Apologies to Hushfield, Knotwilg and any other Belgians :) .

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Post #116 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:00 am 
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But Poirot is Belgian.


SDN, TZ: the plot thickens, doesn't it. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #117 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:49 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Not sure I have any choice about this - makes his wall a bit thin, but a disappointing result. I think I was greedy trying to mess around keeping the kill alive. The solid connection earlier just looks clearly better now.

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #118 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:30 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 X 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #119 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:13 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 :b1: :w100:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 C 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #239 SoDesuNe vs topazg
Post #120 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:51 am 
Gosei
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Posts: 1810
Liked others: 490
Was liked: 365
Rank: KGS 1-dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to kill
$$ +-----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . .
$$ | . . X O O O O X . . .
$$ | . . X , X O X X . , .
$$ | . . X . X X O X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

:P

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