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 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #101 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:14 pm 
Lives in sente

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Hey guys, it's finals week and I don't really have time to spare. Gimme a week or two for this, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #102 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:19 pm 
Gosei
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Totally understand. Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #103 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:14 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
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Tygem: 커비라고해
Uberdude wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . y 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . f O X . 6 7 . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . O z 4 5 . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | . e . O 8 O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . d b 9 0 a . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can actually capture at a and the corner doesn't die as z is atari, but black gets f in sente which is nice yose and makes any white invasion of the left side nigh on impossible. But I would probably defend on the corner side as I don't see black achieving much on the lower side. And I really don't like 53 for 54 making white stronger, and if white can atari at y and black connects that is so sad. So I'm not convinced this is a good move by black.


"White can actually capture at a and the corner doesn't die as z is atari"

I'm not sure this is 100% true. At least, it's hard to say that black cannot achieve profit when white captures at 'a'.

For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . O . X W . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | . 8 . O 1 O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | 0 9 7 5 2 3 4 . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | B . O . X O . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | . O . O X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | O X X X O . O . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here, white has a few options. If he plays the atari at 'z'...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . X X . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 3 . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | 1 . O 2 X O . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | 4 O . O X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | O X X X O . O . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . 6 . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


From here, black has two choices. If he has a lot of ko threats (not sure that's the case right now), he can play this way, which has risk if white wins the ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | X 2 O O X O . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O 3 O X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | O X X X O . O . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white wins the ko, black's damage is pretty big, though. So black can opt for a 2-step ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | X . O O X O . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O 2 O X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | O X X X O . O . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | 3 O 1 . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



So if white starts out with atari at 'z', it ends in some sort of ko.

If white starts out by connecting on the first line...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O X 6 . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | 1 7 O 4 X O . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | 2 O 3 O X O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | O X X X O . O . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's influence is increased and he gains two stones, but black's corner profit is also large. It may be a feasible strategy.


Still, like you said, white might be fine just blocking the corner side, because black seems disadvantaged if he tries to make something on the bottom:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to do something magical?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . , . O . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O 1 O . . . . . . O X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #243, Violence vs. Loons
Post #104 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:19 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
This is an interesting game. At the moment, I slightly prefer white. I feel they have similar count in points, but white's potential seems greater at the moment to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | w w w w w . . . b b . . . . b b b b b |
$$ | . . w O . . . . b . . . . . b b b b b |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . X . . . . b b b b b |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . , . . . B . X . X . |
$$ | . . b b b B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b b . B . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b b B . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | b b b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . W . X . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b b |
$$ | . . X B . . W . . . . . . . W . . b b |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . W X X X b |
$$ | . . O , X W . . . , . W w X X O O X b |
$$ | w w w O . W w w w w w w O X O O X b b |
$$ | w w w w . w w w w w w w w O O O X b b |
$$ | w w w w w w w w w w w w w . . X . b b |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black - around 53 points
White - around 47 + komi. Maybe black can find an effective move on the bottom, but it seems difficult.

The marked white stones seem to have greater potential than the marked black ones...

So I feel slightly better for white...

Still early, of course.

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