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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #121 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:36 pm 
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It's really no problem. I just wasn't sure if my move got noticed after my longer break...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 6 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I was also thinking about extending below, however Q4 is probably an important shape point for w. After the following sequence, it would be too easy to w to get the lower group alive:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . 7 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X 5 6 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O 9 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . 8 . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 0 . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


With my actual move, a similar sequence could follow, however I would not need an extra move :b75: in order to prevent an eye at P4. Thus it might get a bit more tough for the w group (it will live anyway at the end, I guess...). A good news is that my lower right side gets solidified in that process.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #122 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:51 pm 
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 9 . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 6 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Here it goes. May this sacrifice not be in vain... :-?

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #123 Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:07 am 
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Posts: 420
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Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 9 . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 0 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 6 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


To catch a bit up in time, I have a trigger:
If you play N6 I will play N9 (it's then the only move anyway...).

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #124 Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:02 am 
Oza

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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
schawipp wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . a . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 9 b O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 0 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 6 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]



I have a hard time deciding, but I think white can just trade with A or B and still have potential on the bottom.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #125 Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:00 pm 
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My opponent has now given me an interesting choice. And I think I need to sacrifice these two cutting stones. And then play something like this jump.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , a . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . X O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I will have to think on this, as I may also want to directly kill black's cutting stone with a ladder at 'a' or something else. By the end of the day, I will decide.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #126 Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:39 pm 
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Sorry, I did not trigger your trigger. I would give you one, but, to be honest, I haven't fully decided what move I will play after this one. :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . X O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So yeah, I'm saving these stones and giving up the two. Next up will probably be some sort of jump from my 4 stone wall here. My goal is to make as many points as possible in the center if black reduces from the outside or, if black lives in the center, to make points above and below that life.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #127 Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:24 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 captured: :w2:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . X O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Two guesses:
- I really have no choice here
- My :b69: was suboptimal

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #128 Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:48 am 
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Universal go server handle: moyoaji
First blood goes to black. Second blood goes to white. :twisted:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 captured: :w2:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . X O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Recently, I have been trying to get back into a style of playing more solidly. My overly aggressive tendencies got me into this mess. Perhaps proper moves like this will allow me to get out. After all, this is a cutting stone. If you can capture a cutting stone, why should you not? My two stones there are huge for reducing black in the center and this move should prevent my wall from becoming weak. Now I can simply focus on attacking black in the center and helping my lower group live.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #129 Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:42 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 captured: :w2:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . X O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


In the meantime I had the hallucination that :w72: on tengen simply captures L9 in a net. However on a second glance, it doesn't work. Finally, we have reached the 'ladder variation' which I mentioned before, therefore I play a ladder breaker which at the same time threatens to enter the white top side.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #130 Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:19 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . 5 . O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I figured a ladder breaker was coming next, and I had no intention of doing anything but taking. I don't want to mess with any sort of fuss or shenanigans.

A ladder breaker like this is not like a ko threat. I can deal with the consequences of whatever black does next on top. This move is too big to be ignored and removes all aji from these stones. I can now focus on playing moves to help the bottom group live, attack the group above, and even possibly split black on the left with the newfound strength of this center group.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #131 Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:16 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
I can now focus on playing moves to help the bottom group live...



It seems very unlikely to me that W's stones on the bottom can live, even with the first move.

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #132 Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:53 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . X . 6 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . 5 . O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After the center exchange it's worthwhile to have a look at points. The lower-right w group seems pretty dead now, at least I cannot find a convincing resurrection, even if I try hard (wishful thinking, you know...). If I'm correct, the lower right side is 50 points for black. Together with the right side (16-18 points) and the left invasion (~10 points) this is more than 75 points. White also has about 50 points at whole upper-left, 15 points lower left and 6.5 points of komi - in summary the current scores seem somehow balanced. Therefore - if the lower group is REALLY dead, I don't need to think about drastic operations (if it is not dead, I have a problem, though ;-)).

Of course it is tempting to invade into the white area at (a) right away. However white got a nice center wall with a ponnuki, and if he manages to cut off my G14 stones I could end up in big trouble.

The move M14 helps to stay connected with my right group (which BTW also may need a bit of attention due to the presence of the white wall) while still maintaining the option to reduce white e.g. via (a) or (c).

The connection to the bottom is a bit more difficult since white can play (d) in Sente (unless I'm ready to sacrifice my left invasion group, which I'm not).

I'm not going to show and deeper variations here, since giving reliable forecasts in this position is way beyond my reading capabilities ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . c . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . a . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . b . 4 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . 5 . O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #133 Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Posts: 773
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Liked others: 143
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Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . X . 6 . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . 5 . O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


There is a fundamental principle that I am applying here: "Keep your stones connected and your opponent's stones disconnected." This move loosely aims at connecting to my wall, but it definitely aims at keeping black from connecting to his right-side group.

Things can get tricky here. Both the attachment above and below are possible for black, but from what I have read black can't stop me from disconnecting here. Instead, I need to be concerned about what sort of aji is left behind and whether black can make enough shape here to live. Thankfully, a stick is not a good shape for eyes. I just need to make sure black doesn't get much better than a stick here.

Do I think I can kill this? Not if black plays it right, but if I do somehow manage to kill this center group I don't see how I'll lose.

I will show the most interesting variation I read:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 4 . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O 0 3 7 5 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 9 8 2 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 6 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This is ugly and messy with us each trying to cut the other apart. My groups have liberty issues, but I think they can at least stay strong enough to let me cut off the bulk of black's group. I'd imagine that, with this variation, I will lose something on the top side, but will gain in the center.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #134 Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:27 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . X . 6 . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . 5 . O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After white blocks I plan to wedge at O16. After a sequence like in the following, white should save his O14 stones via a-b-c sequence (b is needed to prevent w from entering right side). After that I can play d and hope that - given the weakness around N16 - this is enough to make live.

White does not need to play the atari :w82: and can instead save the N14 stones right away. Anyway, I'll get some extra time to play a move like (d) to either capture a w stone or build enough strength. It's difficult to find a precise conclusion, OTOH it will be game deciding. But that's how many of my games tend to end up... :scratch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . d O . . 2 1 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 6 4 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 7 X 5 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . c b . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #135 Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:41 pm 
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Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . X . 6 . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . 5 . O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Thoughts on schawipp's previous move: Unexpected as has been the case for most of this game. I don't think encouraging me to connect and cut his stones off is a good idea, but perhaps I have misread something about this move.
Reason for playing my move: Keep my stones connected and my opponent's stones disconnected. I have no other reason.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #136 Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:07 pm 
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Posts: 420
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm70 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . 0 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 4 . . X . 6 . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . 5 . O 1 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


As planned - I have no greater insights than in my last comment, yet...

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #137 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:06 am 
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Alright, I'll try one of these fancy "trigger" things.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . 1 X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Malkovich Comments:
So now my opponent disconnects me. Well, then I have to disconnect my opponent.

I don't think black would wedge just to let me capture and make a ponnuki, so I'm going to assume he saves. Hence the trigger.

Next, I expect black will play some sort of a jump that makes shape while threatening my 2 stones. Thankfully, I have my wall to run to.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 1 O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Again, I don't expect to kill black, but I do hope I can gain profit by attacking. Running my cutting stones is important not because I expect black to die, but because after this fight is over a wall there will let me reduce the right.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #138 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:27 pm 
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The trigger is accepted, and I add some bad shape just for the fun of it... :mrgreen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 4 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


On first glance, N12 looks most reasonable, however there is a very good chance that it fails miserably:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm83 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 7 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 6 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 0 3 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 1 2 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 8 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


... and then ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm93 Captured: :w2: :b1: Black resigns here
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 0 9 7 X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X 6 X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 8 4 2 O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 5 3 1 X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After some more examination the key seems to avoid the atari at N14. The situation is quite complex but at least I seem to have some chances...

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 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #139 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:00 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 218
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 4 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


At first, I scoffed at this move by black. Yet it is one that I must respect. I don't think it was the best move possible, but it does prevent me from jumping and it does take away a possibly useful atari at N14.

So, since my opponent is solidly connecting, I must run solidly. This is the slowest possible running move, but I can see no other option. This variation does not appeal to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Doomed to failure...
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X X O 5 X 8 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 7 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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Offline
 Post subject: Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp
Post #140 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:41 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 420
Liked others: 75
Was liked: 58
Rank: EGF 4k
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Captured: :w2: :b1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . 3 1 X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . X . X 4 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . O . O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X X X . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X O O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This starts as I planned so far...

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