I'll play as black, and won't give komi. Your choice on study materials
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| #248 amatterof vs. Kirby http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11241 |
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| Author: | amatterof [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Hi Kirby, Since I said I was between 2-3d and you're 1d on KGS, I guess we have a choice between a no-komi game, or a 2-stone game. Or perhaps a small reverse-komi is the way to go? I'm fine with any of these options, and look forward to the game. Also, what would you like the rules to be regarding outside reference materials? |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
I'll play as black, and won't give komi. Your choice on study materials
I've beaten KGS 2d before with no handicap, and have beaten KGS 3d with no handicap twice. So I think i have a chance. But I've lost many more games against KGS 2d/3d, so I will have to be careful. |
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| Author: | amatterof [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
OK, Let's go for closed book.
My general approach as White is to play 3-4 stones, as so many of the common fusekis (mini-Chinese, Kobayashi, and some continuations of the Orthodox and Chinese) rely on a White 4-4 stone. The sooner I can disrupt my opponent's initial plan, the better. I don't feel like I am particularly strong in fuseki. Instead, my goal for this game will be to try to simply keep it even during the opening, and make up the lack of komi in the middle game. (I don't expect too many endgame errors in a game like this with essentially infinite thinking time.) |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Not much to say, yet. He played 3-4 point, which is a viable option for white. I'll do the same. My favorite opening is micro-Chinese opening. So let's play in a way that sets up for that. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
 is my sealed move.  at "a" has a good track record.Edit: Unhidden. |
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| Author: | amatterof [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
This move is for the same reason as before. I often end up with 3-4 points facing each other as White, and generally find it to work out ok. Sometimes I see opponents next split with the left side with a play at C10, but if I had to guess, I think Kirby will play the shimari at P3 to start the Orthodox opening. Here were a few other candidates I considered:
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
One of the good things about being in the Yunguseng Dojang is that I've become more confident in the opening. I've studied several different types of openings, and it helps me to have a better idea of what to do when there are so many options. My favorite opening as black is the micro-chinese opening, but based on white's move, I'm throwing that idea out. You can still make a micro-Chinese-ish formation on the bottom with something like this:
or maybe even try to approach, and if white responds, go for it:
But I don't think it's a good way of playing, and pros probably wouldn't play that way. Basically, it's saying, "Micro-Chinese is the only thing I want to play." Since I've had some exposure to various openings, I think I can have more flexibility than that. White's opening is common, and Inseong has a lecture on it. It's called the "Hyang Somok" opening, i.e. the facing 3-4 opening. Most of In-seong's lectures are from black's perspective, but he discusses opening this way both as black and as white. For black, it might go like this:
The idea behind this opening for black is to have an easy opening. Black can get a good amount of territory from the beginning, and can move to the middle game quickly. If you're not into fancy openings, it's an easy way to go fast into the middle game. For that reason, I feel it's a little bit of a slack opening for black. Black should try to take the initiative at the beginning, since he doesn't have komi (though in this game, white doesn't have komi, either ).That being said, it's a good opening for white, because from white's perspective, he doesn't have to do anything fancy - just maintain his komi lead, and don't let black do anything fancy. --- Anyway, given all of this, the question becomes, where should I play next? Based on what I recall from Inseong's lecture, splitting white on the left is slack for black. In one of the examples I recall, he said he'd be happy to have this opening as white:
White has komi, gets good territory, and has no complaints. Something more active is better, like approaching one of the 3-4 points. So if the board were as above, I'd probably approach the 3-4 point without much hesitation:
However, since I have a 3-4 point facing his of my own, I can also consider enclosing the bottom right. The "1-3-5" opening, as Inseong refers to it, is something I've studied a lot:
Though, since he has the facing 3-4 points, approaching is also appealing. So, I'm considering: Option A
Option B
Option C
The first two seem more active in trying to prevent white from making a nice formation. The last one is to try to build up something of my own on the right, perhaps taking advantage of my study of this type of opening. I'll think about this for a couple of minutes more, and then decide between these options. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Let's just go with this one. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
@Kirby
1 here is pretty bad if you don't defend it with a closer extension. An approach to 4-4 is lighter as it can jump into 3-3, so you can make a distant chinese-y extension, but that option doesn't exist now so it's just a bad exchange to give white a shimari. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Uberdude wrote: @Kirby
1 here is pretty bad if you don't defend it with a closer extension. An approach to 4-4 is lighter as it can jump into 3-3, so you can make a distant chinese-y extension, but that option doesn't exist now so it's just a bad exchange to give white a shimari. @Uberdude: Thanks, that's good to know. I can see the reasoning, and I agree. Another reason not to select that as an option! By the way, I didn't like this, either, as I mentioned in my post:
Would you agree? |
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| Author: | amatterof [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Thanks for agreeing to this game. I feel like I'm already benefiting from being able (forced) to deeply analyze positions in ways that wouldn't be possible in live games. I'm enjoying it so much that I've started two correspondence games on OGS as well.
There are so many possible joseki here that it's tough to know where to begin, and I expect many of them are playable. That said, the thing that jumps out at me about this position is that both directions are open. (R3 and D17 both face the corner we're focusing on.) To me, that means that White should try to find a way to play on both sides if possible, and that screams pincer. That also means I'll probably have to sacrifice the corner. In a live game, my territorial instincts would steer me away from that path, but this seems like a good opportunity to branch out. Since there are so many variations here, I put everything into an sgf, but now it looks like I can't put sgf blocks in spoilers? Bummer. The link is here: http://eidogo.com/#1itdDFRtS:0,0 For those wanting the cliff-notes:
I know there are joseki from A and C that would let me play on both sides, but since I've never really studied them, I'm not confident enough to play them here. B is the territory oriented move that I'd play in a live game. If Black attaches at C3 as I expect, I'll likely play G3. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
@Kirby I personally don't particularly like it (prefer some approach to either corner, or shimari), but I wouldn't criticise it as a mistake. Cho U did that immediate micro Chinese a lot, though I don't know if against facing white 3-4s. I feel against double 4-4 it's nicer because white doesn't have a shimari to make, so you can be more laid back. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Thanks, amatterof. I'm glad you are enjoying the game. I will be wary of your power, since you are analyzing the position deeply. I'm considering four options here: Option 1
Looks kind of bad, since white has the stone in the top left. White can make a nice shape in top left.
OTOH, I do like being able to play on the right side next as black:
So I'll keep it on the table for now... Option 2
I don't know much about this move, but I think it's good when I want to value the left side... Still, I'm probably not going to select this one. It's just kind of on my mind. Option 3
I could approach the other corner first to see how he reacts. But this is slightly unorganized, and lets him make a good strategy, too. I don't know if I like this or not. Option 4
This is the safe way, and I think it will be an OK result. If I don't end up liking the other options, I'll pick this one. I will probably pick this, but I'll have to think about it for a little bit. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
( Local time Dec 23, 2014 Tue 10:34 am. ) |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
I'll just go with this one. It's what I'm most familiar with. |
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| Author: | amatterof [ Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Guessing right makes this analysis a little bit easier, but I need to make sure that I don't miss something now that I can focus on just this variation.
A is still my choice, and I've already eliminated C because it gives Black great thickness facing the open bottom side. One thing that's worth thinking about a bit though is whether to exchange B for D4 first, before playing G3. Something like this would probably happen then:
Both sides have awkward shape, and Black can try to claim B2 as sente, or simply play elsewhere. Comparing this to the most likely result if I play G3 directly (below) is what led me to stick with my original choice at A. In particular, the lack of a Black stone at F7 will help if/when I want to develop the upper left more.
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
His move is popular these days:
In-seong doesn't particularly like it, because it doesn't put much pressure on black. A lot of other joseki put pressure on black, and that's more of his style. White's move is more like negotiation. For example:
Here, white is calm, and gets a position on both sides. Black gets some easy territory in what used to be white's corner. But there's no pressure to either side. That's why it's like negotiation - black can have the corner, white can have the sides. White might try to take away black's base, in which case, black can pressure white's stones:
Another popular option is this:
Again, black gets the corner, and white can get groups on the sides. This time, though, white doesn't have a complete base on the left side. If white defends the left, black can pressure the bottom, and vice versa:
Sometimes white plays diagonally, which is also flexible:
Which brings us to what I played. I haven't played this move much, but I know it's an option. I learned some variations at the US Go Congress in 2014. I haven't had much experience in playing these variations, though, so I hope to use this game as a way to practice it, and solidify it into my tool belt as a possible option in my games. And why not? It looks fun. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Kirby wrote:
Which brings us to what I played. I haven't played this move much, but I know it's an option. I learned some variations at the US Go Congress in 2014. I haven't had much experience in playing these variations, though, so I hope to use this game as a way to practice it, and solidify it into my tool belt as a possible option in my games. And why not? It looks fun. My understanding is that this line has since been discarded as disadvantageous for black, but I don't recall the refutation, unfortunately. Fun is always a good reason to play something, though. |
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| Author: | amatterof [ Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Hmm, Black's move is a strong one, and I do not know the variations from here very well at all. Lots of candidate moves:
Between A and C, I think it's better for me to trust my own reading and analysis instead of blindly following a vague recollection of a pro game. The worst case is that I (in embarrassingly public fashion) learn something interesting about this joseki. Most of my analysis of C focused on what happens if Black plays the cross-cut and White extends.
Here, Black has a number of options, and I have an SGF file that explores these and Black's other responses for 1 that I'll try to upload once I'm back from holiday travel. In some variations, Black does succeed in preventing White from playing on both sides, but White gets a solid corner as compensation. The part that worries me is that in some variations Black comes close to being able to seal White into the corner, which would be the exact opposite of my plan. Usually this seems to involve a well-timed Black play at E3, so I'll need to be careful about that. Here goes nothing... |
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| Author: | amatterof [ Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby |
Here is the sgf referenced in my previous post: http://eidogo.com/#4qHZ1KrQO:0,10 |
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