Since I said I was between 2-3d and you're 1d on KGS, I guess we have a choice between a no-komi game, or a 2-stone game. Or perhaps a small reverse-komi is the way to go? I'm fine with any of these options, and look forward to the game.
Also, what would you like the rules to be regarding outside reference materials?
My general approach as White is to play 3-4 stones, as so many of the common fusekis (mini-Chinese, Kobayashi, and some continuations of the Orthodox and Chinese) rely on a White 4-4 stone. The sooner I can disrupt my opponent's initial plan, the better.
I don't feel like I am particularly strong in fuseki. Instead, my goal for this game will be to try to simply keep it even during the opening, and make up the lack of komi in the middle game. (I don't expect too many endgame errors in a game like this with essentially infinite thinking time.)
Not much to say, yet. He played 3-4 point, which is a viable option for white. I'll do the same. My favorite opening is micro-Chinese opening. So let's play in a way that sets up for that.
This move is for the same reason as before. I often end up with 3-4 points facing each other as White, and generally find it to work out ok. Sometimes I see opponents next split with the left side with a play at C10, but if I had to guess, I think Kirby will play the shimari at P3 to start the Orthodox opening.
A (or something around there) strikes me as the most consistent with my previously stated goal of disrupting my opponent's plans early. It prevents even the Orthodox opening, in addition to stopping mini/micro-Chinese. If I played here, getting sente from this joseki would be very important to try to come back to the open corner.
B is something I've played on occasion. My worry is that Black can approach around e3/e4 and make look good.
C - If this was open book, I expect the databases would tell me this is the most common response. But a mini or micro-Chinese variant seems likely then, and, as I've said, I'm trying to avoid that.
D seems bad. This is the classic case of 3-4 stones facing each other. The first player to play in the area (which will be black here) has an advantage.
One of the good things about being in the Yunguseng Dojang is that I've become more confident in the opening. I've studied several different types of openings, and it helps me to have a better idea of what to do when there are so many options.
My favorite opening as black is the micro-chinese opening, but based on white's move, I'm throwing that idea out. You can still make a micro-Chinese-ish formation on the bottom with something like this:
But I don't think it's a good way of playing, and pros probably wouldn't play that way. Basically, it's saying, "Micro-Chinese is the only thing I want to play." Since I've had some exposure to various openings, I think I can have more flexibility than that.
White's opening is common, and Inseong has a lecture on it. It's called the "Hyang Somok" opening, i.e. the facing 3-4 opening. Most of In-seong's lectures are from black's perspective, but he discusses opening this way both as black and as white. For black, it might go like this:
The idea behind this opening for black is to have an easy opening. Black can get a good amount of territory from the beginning, and can move to the middle game quickly. If you're not into fancy openings, it's an easy way to go fast into the middle game. For that reason, I feel it's a little bit of a slack opening for black. Black should try to take the initiative at the beginning, since he doesn't have komi (though in this game, white doesn't have komi, either ).
That being said, it's a good opening for white, because from white's perspective, he doesn't have to do anything fancy - just maintain his komi lead, and don't let black do anything fancy.
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Anyway, given all of this, the question becomes, where should I play next? Based on what I recall from Inseong's lecture, splitting white on the left is slack for black. In one of the examples I recall, he said he'd be happy to have this opening as white:
White has komi, gets good territory, and has no complaints.
Something more active is better, like approaching one of the 3-4 points. So if the board were as above, I'd probably approach the 3-4 point without much hesitation:
However, since I have a 3-4 point facing his of my own, I can also consider enclosing the bottom right. The "1-3-5" opening, as Inseong refers to it, is something I've studied a lot:
The first two seem more active in trying to prevent white from making a nice formation. The last one is to try to build up something of my own on the right, perhaps taking advantage of my study of this type of opening.
I'll think about this for a couple of minutes more, and then decide between these options.
1 here is pretty bad if you don't defend it with a closer extension. An approach to 4-4 is lighter as it can jump into 3-3, so you can make a distant chinese-y extension, but that option doesn't exist now so it's just a bad exchange to give white a shimari.
1 here is pretty bad if you don't defend it with a closer extension. An approach to 4-4 is lighter as it can jump into 3-3, so you can make a distant chinese-y extension, but that option doesn't exist now so it's just a bad exchange to give white a shimari.
@Uberdude:
Thanks, that's good to know. I can see the reasoning, and I agree. Another reason not to select that as an option!
By the way, I didn't like this, either, as I mentioned in my post:
Thanks for agreeing to this game. I feel like I'm already benefiting from being able (forced) to deeply analyze positions in ways that wouldn't be possible in live games. I'm enjoying it so much that I've started two correspondence games on OGS as well.
There are so many possible joseki here that it's tough to know where to begin, and I expect many of them are playable. That said, the thing that jumps out at me about this position is that both directions are open. (R3 and D17 both face the corner we're focusing on.) To me, that means that White should try to find a way to play on both sides if possible, and that screams pincer. That also means I'll probably have to sacrifice the corner. In a live game, my territorial instincts would steer me away from that path, but this seems like a good opportunity to branch out.
Since there are so many variations here, I put everything into an sgf, but now it looks like I can't put sgf blocks in spoilers? Bummer. The link is here: http://eidogo.com/#1itdDFRtS:0,0
I know there are joseki from A and C that would let me play on both sides, but since I've never really studied them, I'm not confident enough to play them here. B is the territory oriented move that I'd play in a live game. If Black attaches at C3 as I expect, I'll likely play G3.
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@Kirby
I personally don't particularly like it (prefer some approach to either corner, or shimari), but I wouldn't criticise it as a mistake. Cho U did that immediate micro Chinese a lot, though I don't know if against facing white 3-4s. I feel against double 4-4 it's nicer because white doesn't have a shimari to make, so you can be more laid back.
I don't know much about this move, but I think it's good when I want to value the left side... Still, I'm probably not going to select this one. It's just kind of on my mind.
I could approach the other corner first to see how he reacts. But this is slightly unorganized, and lets him make a good strategy, too. I don't know if I like this or not.
This is the safe way, and I think it will be an OK result. If I don't end up liking the other options, I'll pick this one. I will probably pick this, but I'll have to think about it for a little bit.
Guessing right makes this analysis a little bit easier, but I need to make sure that I don't miss something now that I can focus on just this variation.
A is still my choice, and I've already eliminated C because it gives Black great thickness facing the open bottom side. One thing that's worth thinking about a bit though is whether to exchange B for D4 first, before playing G3. Something like this would probably happen then:
Both sides have awkward shape, and Black can try to claim B2 as sente, or simply play elsewhere. Comparing this to the most likely result if I play G3 directly (below) is what led me to stick with my original choice at A. In particular, the lack of a Black stone at F7 will help if/when I want to develop the upper left more.
In-seong doesn't particularly like it, because it doesn't put much pressure on black. A lot of other joseki put pressure on black, and that's more of his style. White's move is more like negotiation.
Again, black gets the corner, and white can get groups on the sides. This time, though, white doesn't have a complete base on the left side. If white defends the left, black can pressure the bottom, and vice versa:
Which brings us to what I played. I haven't played this move much, but I know it's an option. I learned some variations at the US Go Congress in 2014.
I haven't had much experience in playing these variations, though, so I hope to use this game as a way to practice it, and solidify it into my tool belt as a possible option in my games.
Which brings us to what I played. I haven't played this move much, but I know it's an option. I learned some variations at the US Go Congress in 2014.
I haven't had much experience in playing these variations, though, so I hope to use this game as a way to practice it, and solidify it into my tool belt as a possible option in my games.
And why not? It looks fun.
My understanding is that this line has since been discarded as disadvantageous for black, but I don't recall the refutation, unfortunately. Fun is always a good reason to play something, though.
A - I seem to recall that one of the few times I'd seen Black's move in professional play, the response was at A. This avoids helping Black fix any weaknesses in shape, while continuing to develop the left side. That said, I don't know the continuations and the few I played out all seemed good for Black.
B - I know this is a mistake. Black simply descends to C5 and White ends up with two weak groups with bad shape separated by a solid Black one.
C - My choice. More below
D - I briefly checked this idea, because in some variations, Black kicks at C5 and White extends up to D. Here, however, it seems out of order.
E - This is a naked grab for the corner, I should at least give Black the option of allowing me to continue with my original plan before abandoning it.
Between A and C, I think it's better for me to trust my own reading and analysis instead of blindly following a vague recollection of a pro game. The worst case is that I (in embarrassingly public fashion) learn something interesting about this joseki. Most of my analysis of C focused on what happens if Black plays the cross-cut and White extends.
Here, Black has a number of options, and I have an SGF file that explores these and Black's other responses for 1 that I'll try to upload once I'm back from holiday travel. In some variations, Black does succeed in preventing White from playing on both sides, but White gets a solid corner as compensation. The part that worries me is that in some variations Black comes close to being able to seal White into the corner, which would be the exact opposite of my plan. Usually this seems to involve a well-timed Black play at E3, so I'll need to be careful about that.
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