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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #61 Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 5:56 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
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Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 1 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . c . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . 4 . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 8 . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 9 X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I put quite a lot of reading into this move. Not just for this local sequence, but also where to go next when I get sente. I really think I need sente to build something significant in the center. Here is what I think will happen locally, afterward I want to play "a". If B responds at B to reduce the center I think it is very dangerous for B's left side group. "c" i really calling out to me, but it is a very gote move, so I want to make sure I get some attacking done before I grab it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 8 4 1 O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . b . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #62 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:41 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4504
Location: Chatteris, UK
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GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Offline
 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #63 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 2:17 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Offline
 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #64 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:48 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4504
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1580
Was liked: 651
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Really? That feels toothpasty, maybe I'm missing something :-?

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #65 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:07 am 
Honinbo

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Mi-mi-mi-mi-mee!

Toothpaste on my shoulder makes me happy.
Toothpaste in my eyes can make me cry.

:D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

"Once in a very great while his eyes light up for a moment, and he says "Whee!" very quietly."
— Lion Miller

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #66 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:33 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #67 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:44 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4504
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KGS: topazg
I want to think about this. First instinct says "just extend", but I need to compare these two diagrams:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 B . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . 7 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


... and ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 B . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 7 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In both cases the marked stone has lost most of its aji. In the first diagram, I'd be very fond of it if there was something particularly nasty against the lower left corner, but there doesn't seem to be other than the obvious (open skirt, monkey jump, yada yada yada). It leaves a bit more aji in the marked stone too, so it's my choice right now, but ... yeah, it also gives White a bit more points and stability in the upper middle. So I want to have a bit of a further think.

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #68 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:38 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4504
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1580
Was liked: 651
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think I found what I was looking for. Will see what he does next!

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #69 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:50 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As planned.

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Offline
 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #70 Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:11 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4504
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1580
Was liked: 651
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . 7 . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Well, this promises to be fun :)

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #71 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:05 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . 7 8 . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I started reading out variations, but there were so many I got tired. I tested for 'a', 'b', and 'c'. We'll see how it goes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . c 7 8 . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . a 6 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . b . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #72 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:53 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4504
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1580
Was liked: 651
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . 7 8 . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 6 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 9 . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #73 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 7:55 am 
Tengen
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Some of the reading here is hideous. It's all about exact liberties, and frankly, so easy to bodge up badly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . a 7 8 . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 0 6 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 9 . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is my next move for those interested. The atari looks crude, but I needed to prevent the below diagram from being too painful. I'm sure there was a more elegant way to approach this, even simply hane-ing underneath, but that just seemed to lack fighting spirit somehow

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . 1 X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O O X 2 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X 3 4 X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Without the atari, I just can't prevent this... now I have some interesting resources:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . 1 X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O O X 2 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 8 X 3 4 X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 0 9 6 5 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . a X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . 9 . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . X X O 8 O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 5 O O X O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . b . 3 X . O X X O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 2 6 O X C X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The extension at "a" is now sente I think, opening up both "b" moves, so living isn't a problem. I'm not too worried about him getting that group at the bottom in exchange for running into the centre. Particularly as if I make D10 a viable move, he has to be careful of his own central group. Moves like :w76: can't be omitted due to shortage of liberties problems. I'll be honest though, this is a bit of a mess!

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #74 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:53 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . 7 8 . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 0 6 X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 9 . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is the only answer that looks satisfactory. It is very complicated though. Especially since the bottom left corner enters into the fighting.

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #75 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 1:06 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4504
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . O O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Having re-read my other sequences, I'm going to "exchange" this first I think. I should probably have done this before the other exchanges, but my reading wasn't up to the task originally. I have "exchange" in quotes because technically White can ignore this. I can turn it into a ko for the entire corner though, with 3 local threats for White, so I'm quietly hopeful that I should be able to either profit in a big way in the corner, or get to eat White's two invady stones.... Lots of complications ahead!

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #76 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . O O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X . . X . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


For some reason, I didn't even consider the possibility of a non-local response. This exchange makes many of my variations not work, so I don't think I have a choice but to take a hit in the center. Hopefully I can get some compensation.

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #77 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:03 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4504
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . 3 X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . O O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X . . X . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


And now to return to the action. I still have to suffer some ugly shape mess ... on the plus side, I get these two stones now.

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #78 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:51 pm 
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Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . 3 X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . O O X 4 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X . . X . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think I can block the side in sente and then come backk and grab a big point like N10.

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #79 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:15 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4504
Location: Chatteris, UK
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . 3 X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . O O X 4 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X . . X 5 . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The start of a mess....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . 3 X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . O O X 4 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X . 0 X 5 6 X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 7 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . X X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . b O X . . O O X O . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . a X . O X X O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . c O 5 4 7 2 1 C X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . 8 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I had thought that "a" was a ko threat, imagining that White would connect at "b" if I pushed through, but if White connects at "c", then I don't think I have anything. So I might need to look for useful ko threat moves. It's a semi-picnic ko in that I don't really need to win if I have some good followup moves, as I'd originally sort of written off that lower side. However, I could have hane'd underneath at the very beginning and kept territory down here. I didn't because that centre is big ... which means if I'm going to lose this ko, I ought to neutralise the centre fairly completely really.

EDIT: lol, just realised that's no ko. I may play differently for :b67: ...

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 Post subject: Re: #252 djllap vs topazg
Post #80 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:16 pm 
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Posts: 602
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Liked others: 4
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Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . . . . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . 3 X O . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . O O X 4 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . X . . X 5 6 X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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